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boxerdad
07-19-2009, 01:23 PM
I've just purchased, downloaded, and installed Steinway Basic onto my machine. I'm using Brainspawn Forte V 2.0 as a host. When I first installed Steinway Basic, I would swear that everything worked as expected. After shutting down my system and then re-starting in the morning, Steinway Basic has stopped responding to the volume pedal. Using Midiox, I've verified that the pedal is working and transmitting CC7 values 00-79 (0-127) on channel 1. Forte allows me to re-map incoming CC data. If I remap my expression pedal (CC7) to Sustain (CC64) I can use the expression pedal as a sustain pedal when the pedal is all the way down (127) - so I know that the pedal is working and that when unison mapped (CC7 from the pedal to CC7 in Steinway) the volume pedal should work. If I use another piano VST like Truepiano and use the exact midi CC routing and mapping, the volume pedal works. WTF? Has anyone ever run into this problem? Steinway Basic sounds great and I'm anxious to use it but this damned CC#7 thing is a total show stopper. :confused::( Any ideas? Thanks in advance. I hope i'm doing something really stupid . . .

rbowser-
07-19-2009, 10:39 PM
Hi, Boxerdad - Any ideas? Yes - The Steinway doesn't respond to CC7. It's volume is controlled solely by velocity values (how hard you hit the keys). Inside an app like Sonar, of course the audio slider it's assigned to will effect its volume in proportion with other instruments in a mix.

Randy B.

boxerdad
07-20-2009, 06:16 AM
Randy:

Thanks for your input! Good lord, it looks like I was lead astray by the manual itself. :wow: The following is from Appendix A:

"Besides Note-ons and Note-offs, the Garritan Authorized Steinway Virtual Concert Grand responds to these MIDI commands:

Controller #64, Sustain pedal. Holds any notes which are currently sounding or subse-quently played when depressed. Also engages the Sustain Resonance if active.

Controller #66, Sostenuto pedal. Holds only the notes which are currently sounding when the pedal is depressed, functioning just as it does on a real acoustic grand piano.

Controller #67, Soft Pedal. Engages the soft pedal samples if they are active.

Controller #7, MIDI Volume. The volume level can be controlled in your MIDI track or by your MIDI controller via the standard MIDI control for volume, cc# 7.

Pitchbend, Modulation Wheel, Channel Pressure (Aftertouch), and Program Change commands do not have any effect."

Proof positive that one cannot always believe what one reads . . .

rbowser-
07-20-2009, 08:59 AM
Hello again, Boxerdad - I've never noticed that Appendix information you quoted. I've confirmed that what you posted is the same text in the hard copy of the manual for my Professional edition of the Steinway.

This made me do some quick tests in the stand alone mode, and then with the piano as a VST in Sonar. As expected, CC7 has no effect in either circumstance.

So I'm perplexed why that info is in the manual. From day one all of us here have understood that the Steinway is controlled solely by velocity, and if we need it at a higher level in a project, it's a matter of working with the Aria audio track in our apps.

Maybe I'm missing something and someone can point out my error, but this is how it seems to me.

I've never had an issue, however, controlling the piano's volume by velocity. The full range of volume is available that way - one wouldn't want to be changing its potential volume level during a project anyway. That's something that would happen with standard MIDI synth pianos - you would hear people using volume control so that notes would unnaturally change volume as they sustain, and you'd also have the effect of the whole piano moving backwards and forwards on a stage during a piece--not very effective.

Well - That's how much I can say on the subject anyway!

Randy B.

Jeff Hurchalla
07-20-2009, 11:21 AM
It looks like the manual got out of synch with some late changes last year and went unnoticed. I'd wanted to put in cc7 originally but some technical stuff that I won't go into made it tricky at the time - since it's uncommon to want to modulate volume during a piano piece it was left out (typically a player would want to set volume only once). Though I might say it's unusual, there's certainly nothing wrong with wanting to use cc7 or cc11, so I am planning to add response to these ccs quite soon. All the more so since the manual mentions cc7.

Jeff Hurchalla
07-20-2009, 11:25 AM
If you're just looking for a way to adjust the volume from within the Steinway GUI, you can move the dry slider in the ambience section - it will change the overall volume even if ambience is off.

boxerdad
07-20-2009, 07:02 PM
Jeff:

Thanks for the clarification! :)

bachelet
03-02-2010, 03:08 PM
Hello,

any news here?

I'm using midi files from Lilypond which writes dynamics ONLY in CC7
alternatively: do you know any script on os x that would convert cc7 to velocity?

thanks in advance,
b

Jeff Hurchalla
03-03-2010, 01:33 PM
Thanks for the reminder on CC7. I meant to put that into 1.04 but apparently I hadn't actually written it down in the feature list to go into it. I don't expect it to be a problem to get into the next update.
Offhand I don't know of any utility for OSX to convert cc7 to velocity. In principle it should be doable, though the main trouble would come in simply being able to find such a utility if it exists.

Macy
03-03-2010, 03:57 PM
I'm using midi files from Lilypond which writes dynamics ONLY in CC7
alternatively: do you know any script on os x that would convert cc7 to velocity?I don't know anything about Lilypond, but the free OS X MidiPipe will certainly do realtime conversion of CC7 messages to velocity messages. Would that work for you?

rbowser-
03-03-2010, 09:37 PM
I don't know anything about Lilypond, but the free OS X MidiPipe will certainly do realtime conversion of CC7 messages to velocity messages. Would that work for you?
Hi, Macy - I knew MidiPipe could convert any controllers to other controllers, - but a controller to velocity--that's a new one on me. Very cool--And you're sure it can do that?

Randy B.

Macy
03-04-2010, 05:39 PM
You can use the AppleScript trigger feature to do just about anything to the Midi stream. If I understand correctly, the OP wants the CC7 messages to adjust the overall volume. So store each incoming CC7 message value as the volume scale factor (value/127) and then multiply each note on message value by that scale factor. i.e. for channel 1, {144, Note#, x} becomes {144, Note#, x * volume scale factor}

rbowser-
03-04-2010, 05:47 PM
You can use the AppleScript trigger feature to do just about anything to the Midi stream. If I understand correctly, the OP wants the CC7 messages to adjust the overall volume. So store each incoming CC7 message value as the volume scale factor (value/127) and then multiply each note on message value by that scale factor. i.e. for channel 1, {144, Note#, x} becomes {144, Note#, x * volume scale factor}
HI - The OP wants CC7 to be converted to MIDI Note Velocity - Is that what your equation here is doing?

Randy

Macy
03-04-2010, 05:56 PM
If bachelet wants CC 7 to act as a velocity scaling control that is what this does for notes on channel 1 (i.e. note on status byte for channel 1 is 144)

change {144, Note#, x} to {144, Note#, x * velocity scale factor} where

velocity scale factor = CC7value/127

If bachelet actually wants CC 7 values to become the velocity of the following notes (I don't believe that is what he wanted) then

change {144, Note#, x} to {144, Note#, CC7value}

Macy
03-04-2010, 06:23 PM
Clarifying - Actually I was not responding to the OP's (boxerdad's) question but to bachelet's question - "do you know any script on os x that would convert cc7 to velocity?"

The conversions I posted above change MIDI note velocities (either scaling them based on the previous CC 7 value, or replacing them with the previous CC 7 value), one of which seemed to be the intent of bachelet's question.

I think the OP (boxerdad) actually wanted CC 7 to work (as it's intended) as a volume control, which is like moving the dry slider control. That is not possible without adding that feature to the Aria Player because changing or scaling the velocity of the notes does more than change the volume, it also changes the timbre, etc. But if you want to change the volume dynamically from within a score, which I think is what bachelet is talking about, then you would want to change the velocity and timbre etc.

rbowser-
03-04-2010, 06:24 PM
If the OP wants CC 7 to act as a volume control (which is what CC7 is intended to do) that is what this does for notes on channel 1 (i.e. note on status byte for channel 1 is 144)

change {144, Note#, x} to {144, Note#, x * volume scale factor} where

volume scale factor = CC7value/127

If the OP actually wants CC 7 values to become the velocity of the following notes (I don't believe that is what he wanted) then

change {144, Note#, x} to {144, Note#, CC7value}

Volume for the Steinway is controlled by Velocity - not by any CC controller. That's why the OP is wanting CC7 to be converted to Velocity - something I've never heard of. But that's what we've been talking about for quite a few posts now. You said, "...OS X MidiPipe will certainly do realtime conversion of CC7 messages to velocity messages..."--So, you're saying this formula you're posting here is what he needs to do in MidiPipe--right?

Randy

rbowser-
03-04-2010, 06:28 PM
Hello again, Macy - Your 2nd reply went up as I was typing.

"...I think the OP (boxerdad) actually wanted CC 7 to work (as it's intended) as a volume control, which is like moving the dry slider control. That is not possible without adding that feature to the Aria Player because changing or scaling the velocity of the notes does more than change the volume, it also changes the timbre, etc. But if you want to change the volume dynamically from within a score, which I think is what bachelet is talking about, then you would want to change the velocity and timbre etc...."

-- What you're talking about doesn't apply to The Authorized Steinway--We're on the Steinway Forum, we're talking about the Authorized Steinway. It's Volume is controlled by VELOCITY--Not By Any MIDI Controller. That is what we're talking about.

Randy

Macy
03-04-2010, 07:17 PM
-- What you're talking about doesn't apply to The Authorized Steinway--We're on the Steinway Forum, we're talking about the Authorized Steinway. It's Volume is controlled by VELOCITY--Not By Any MIDI Controller. That is what we're talking about.

RandyThe original OP (boxerdad) wanted a CC7 volume control as listed in the The Authorized Steinway documentation. That feature (as Jeff Hurchalla explained) was left out of the original Authorized Steinway implementation.

I don't know why the OP wanted that feature, but it is not the same thing as playing the keys with more or less velocity. Playing the keys with more or less velocity changes which samples are played, and hence changes the timbre dynamically. That is a different effect than a normal CC7 volume control that the OP asked about. There is nothing that can be done to the MIDI stream that will act as ONLY a simple volume control (similar to The Authorized Steinway's dry slider effect). That is a feature (CC7) that would have to be added to The Authorized Steinway.

bachelet asked a new question. He wanted to know if there was a way to change note velocities for The Authorized Steinway from CC7 values using an OS X script. That answer is yes, so I responded to his question about how to do it for The Authorized Steinway, but unfortunately I referred to "the OP" rather than bachelet in my comments.

I don't understand what you are upset about. Bachelet's question was about how to create a script to use with The Authorized Steinway, and I simply answered it - to use with The Authorized Steinway.

I apologize.

Macy

rbowser-
03-04-2010, 07:26 PM
Macy - I'm not upset. It was just getting to be a bit Alice in Wonderlandish the way I've had to ask over and over if MidiPipe could indeed convert CC7 to Velocity, since that was the question at hand. It seemed your answers were evasive, and I couldn't tell if the answer was actually being answered.

"...I think the OP (boxerdad) actually wanted CC 7 to work (as it's intended) as a volume control, which is like moving the dry slider control. That is not possible without adding that feature to the Aria Player because changing or scaling the velocity of the notes does more than change the volume, it also changes the timbre, etc. But if you want to change the volume dynamically from within a score, which I think is what bachelet is talking about, then you would want to change the velocity and timbre etc. .."

As I said, this applies more to the regular Garritan instruments.

Yes, there have been two people asking questions on here - that part doesn't matter, but I did get them confused. It's just good to know that there's something that can make CC7 be Velocity. That's new info--And the only thing apropos to this particular Forum page since we're talking about an instrument that doesn't use any CC for it's expression or volume.

Just trying to keep things straight and un-confusing.

Randy

Prosilicium
03-05-2010, 01:16 PM
Hi ,
I put Vst version into "Forte Brainspawn host" and with some programing , Cc7 and select midi channel work. Cc7 is apply to the output of the host, with a virtual slider. Nothing change in timbre and velocity .
Ok but is not a standalone version. I wish from my heart that next aria evolution include Cc7 control same many other music platform .

rbowser-
03-06-2010, 04:12 PM
Hi ,
I put Vst version into "Forte Brainspawn host" and with some programing , Cc7 and select midi channel work. Cc7 is apply to the output of the host, with a virtual slider. Nothing change in timbre and velocity .
Ok but is not a standalone version. I wish from my heart that next aria evolution include Cc7 control same many other music platform .
I understand, you're saying that you can use CC7 on an audio slider in your program, but that doesn't help when using Steinway in stand-alone.

I think if you want to wish for more volume control beyond velocity control, you need to wish for CC11 control, not CC7 control.

CC7 is for setting basic levels of audio, but as you point out, does nothing to control timbre. CC11 is the Expressive control for volume.

However, I don't wish for that to be added to the Steinway. I don't see how it could ever produce usable results - We already have all the variety of timbre and volume variation we need from Velocity alone.

Randy

Prosilicium
03-11-2010, 03:44 PM
Hi,
in fact I wish validation of CC7 (setting basic levels of audio) for standalone and Vsti , and change omni midi channel on standalone version, one channel or choice .Timbre change only with velocity, it's Ok for me
Ps: sorry about my poor english ~|