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View Full Version : White Grand + PianoTeq



xav93
05-17-2007, 03:18 AM
Let's get married best of both worlds!

Here is a quick made mp3 (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demo/White%20Grand%20%2B%20PTQ%20harmo%20%28essai%29.mp 3)
I use "pedal up" samples from White Grand (Sampletekk) ans all the rest (sympathetic resonance, global piano resonance...) is made by PianoTeq.

I play first a large voicing C-G-E and keep it with left hand (without sustain pedal) while I play other things on right hand to show the sympathetic resonance as an acoustic piano does. Then I play with sustain pedal to sho overall piano resonance.

There are maybe things to improve, but IMO, this marriage sounds so good!

Xav

nikolas
05-17-2007, 04:26 AM
MOST interesting!

Let me repeat that: MOST interesting!

Thanks :)

samwhite
05-17-2007, 06:22 AM
Ooooooh, wouw, THATīS the right way!

Hannes_F
05-17-2007, 10:57 AM
This was about how I could play for hours as a boy on the grand piano I inherited from my grandfather. Listening to those evolving resonance sounds did open a new world for me, and it was much more interesting than the playing itself.

Thank you for that, must google pianoteq ... !!!

Hannes

nikolas
05-17-2007, 11:05 AM
no need to google: www.pianoteq.com

If you want speak to Niclas, and mention my name :D hahahahaha!

David Ferris
05-17-2007, 01:13 PM
xav93, could you explain to this technoignoramus how you combined those two?

PS, listened again to your "Skylark" demo. You really should be doing this full time.

MikeInFL
05-18-2007, 09:39 PM
That sounds fantastic. I have pianoteq but not sure how to duplicate your results? I don't have White Grand but I do have the grand piano with Kontact, could I create something similar?

Also are we hearing all of pianoteq with White Grand pedal up samples added? Or is pianoteq reduced some way? Could you explain? Thanks.
Mike

howardv
05-19-2007, 06:48 AM
Same question here. I know its easy enough to disable or delete pedal down samples in a White Grand GS3 or NI lib, but how is the Pianoteq side done? I assume its by script. But I'm wondering if you're resonating the White Grand samples or the Pianoteq synth sound. However you did it, it sounds great.

Howard

xav93
05-23-2007, 10:13 AM
Well, here are some explainations for interested ones. Nothing complicated.
I play live Kontakt 2 with "pedal up" White Grand samples and pianoteq with a preset I called "harmo", both at the same time.
The pianoteq's tweaks are globally like on the image below.

http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Images/PTQ_harmo.JPG

I set "global resonance" to max, lower "volume", raise "sympathetic resonance", adjust "octave stretching" and "unisson width", lower "hammer noise", and adjust REVERB or cut it. Everything depends on the piano to embellish.

The must would be to add a button in Pianoteq to let only harmonics and resonances to sound.

David Ferris
05-23-2007, 12:56 PM
Thank you!

howardv
05-23-2007, 01:32 PM
Thanks, Xav. I guess you could call that an instrument stacking of sorts. Interesting contrast with how Michiel did his. I think he said he processed samples from one piano with impulse responses from a second piano.

Howard

Climber
05-23-2007, 01:59 PM
~| Maybe I'm a total idiot but I still don't see how playing the "White" and "Pianotek" together is accomplished. Would someone be kind enough to draw a rough sketch (line diagram) of what is involved to accomplish this meld and how to connect it all.
Thanks to all.

quicksound
05-23-2007, 11:59 PM
~| Maybe I'm a total idiot but I still don't see how playing the "White" and "Pianotek" together is accomplished. Would someone be kind enough to draw a rough sketch (line diagram) of what is involved to accomplish this meld and how to connect it all.
Thanks to all.

Hi Climber, all you need to do is set up two midi tracks - insert your sampler loaded with white into one of them, then insert Pianoteq into the other. Assign them both to the same midi channel then you can play your keyboard and hear both at the same time. Hoping this helps.
Cheers,
quicksound

www.myspace.com/garyquick

Raindog
05-24-2007, 03:10 AM
Well, here are some explainations for interested ones. Nothing complicated.
I play live Kontakt 2 with "pedal up" White Grand samples and pianoteq with a preset I called "harmo", both at the same time.
The pianoteq's tweaks are globally like on the image below.

http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Images/PTQ_harmo.JPG

I set "global resonance" to max, lower "volume", raise "sympathetic resonance", adjust "octave stretching" and "unisson width", lower "hammer noise", and adjust REVERB or cut it. Everything depends on the piano to embellish.

The must would be to add a button in Pianoteq to let only harmonics and resonances to sound.

Thanks Xavier for the detailed explanation of the Pianoteq settings. Iīll give it a try before my Pianoteq demo license expires.
Raindog

xav93
05-24-2007, 03:23 AM
You can also try to raise "hammer noise" with very good results, especially for undampered strings of the top 1 & 1/2 octave.

MikeInFL
05-24-2007, 12:23 PM
Xav93, thanks for the details! I will try this later, but I don't have White Grand, just the grand that comes with Kontact. It probably will not sound near as good as your demo. Have you tried other piano samples?

Also we both pianos playing notes simultaneously or is Pianotec producing only the sympathetic resonance? Usually two piano tones are not in key.

Mike

Climber
05-24-2007, 04:21 PM
Hi Climber, all you need to do is set up two midi tracks - insert your sampler loaded with white into one of them, then insert Pianoteq into the other. Assign them both to the same midi channel then you can play your keyboard and hear both at the same time. Hoping this helps.
Cheers,
quicksound

www.myspace.com/garyquick (http://www.myspace.com/garyquick)

:oThank you Quicksound!
That makes perfect sense! I'll have to try that with a demo of PianoTek and my GPO Steinway VSTI.
Thanks again!!!

Worra
05-28-2007, 03:15 AM
Cool!!! Maybe SampleTekk anc Pianoteq should do something together!!! PianoTekk...:D

xav93
05-28-2007, 04:11 AM
Also we both pianos playing notes simultaneously or is Pianotec producing only the sympathetic resonance? Usually two piano tones are not in key.

adjust "octave stretching" and "unisson width"
...
Everything depends on the piano to embellish.
The pianoteq's settings or not the sames for TBO for example. In this case, among all tweaks, unisson width has to be near zero to get married well.
And as global resonance is at max, the "dry" sound of the pianoteq is very low because global volume is low too.

The must would be to add a button in Pianoteq to let only harmonics and resonances to sound.





Cool!!! Maybe SampleTekk anc Pianoteq should do something together!!! PianoTekk...
Get married... And don't forget my fees! ;-) lol

MikeInFL
05-29-2007, 02:34 AM
Thanks, Xav for further explanation, I will try it. I've listened to your mp3 several times, I think it's the best virtual piano sound I've heard yet. Mike

MikeInFL
05-29-2007, 11:30 PM
I tried using Pianotec and grand piano in Kontact2, but they are out of tune with each other, and I don't see a way to micro-fine tune either one. Anyone know of a way?

Xav93, how did you get Pianotec and White Grand to be perfectly in tune?

chan
06-07-2007, 05:37 PM
xav93, did you record the MIDI for "White Grand + PTQ harmo (essai).mp3"? If so, it would be interesting to hear how a similar White Grand patch would sound without Pianoteq & vice versa - would you be able to put the corresponding mp3s here to download?

xav93
06-08-2007, 05:34 AM
xav93, did you record the MIDI for "White Grand + PTQ harmo (essai).mp3"? If so, it would be interesting to hear how a similar White Grand patch would sound without Pianoteq & vice versa - would you be able to put the corresponding mp3s here to download?
Here they are (without the final added reverb):
only_WGPU.mp3 (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demo/only_WGPU.mp3)
only_PTQharmo.mp3 (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demo/only_PTQharmo.mp3)

Put both in your sequencer at same level (0dB) first and then compare all you want.
:)

cleartrueblue
06-08-2007, 12:11 PM
Cool!!! Maybe SampleTekk anc Pianoteq should do something together!!! PianoTekk...:D

Seriously, somebody ought to tickle Modartt on this. Given the thousands of "good but still missing something" piano sample products in people's hands, can you imagine the market for a $150-200 "resonance engine" that would take all those libraries over the goal line?

I imagine Moddart have a long road to hoe getting to a fully convincing timbre in their core/direct piano sound...the lack of which must be their main sales objection (that and price). They could still chase that...while enjoying a parallel income selling the bit they have that works superbly now. Just package their core differentiator and sell that!

David Ferris
06-08-2007, 01:42 PM
cleartrueblue, I agree completely.

MikeInFL
06-08-2007, 06:33 PM
Here they are (without the final added reverb):
only_WGPU.mp3 (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demo/only_WGPU.mp3)
only_PTQharmo.mp3 (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demo/only_PTQharmo.mp3)

Put both in your sequencer at same level (0dB) first and then compare all you want.
:)

Thanks for those audio demos. I did manage to do this with pianotec and kontact grand, but my results were not as impressive, because White Grand is far superior. I also have a slightly more out of tune results. I notice you keep pianotec much lower in db, but some notes are slightly out of tune in your combined demo as well, but keeping pianotec low minimizes the tuning issue.

What you did sounds great. I've been wanting upgrade my piano sound, and undecided what piano samples to buy, as I allready have pianotec which is good, but not ultra-real. So I'm now down to two choices- your approach of WhiteGrand and Pianotec or Ivory. I think Ivory sounds better, but this WhiteGrand+Pianotec is the next best I've heard yet.

Worra
06-09-2007, 02:56 AM
....and now you can get White Grand at 50% during the groupbuy......:D

xav93
06-09-2007, 03:00 AM
I think it's possible to do it with every piano, but with a different pianoteq preset for each. I had luck to begin this marriage using WG. It's more difficult or long with others. The WG was not really out of tune compared to pianoteq preset i did but, for example, with TBO, i need to fine tune some keys directly in Kontakt 2. And it's hard to melt correctly PU resonance staccato at a good level and get a good overall sound. So I decided for TBO to keep the K2 convolution PU resonance for staccato and concentrate on pianoteq to do "only" sympathetic resonance PU and PD... with good result now.

If you buy Ivory, you will be able too to get it married with pianoteq. Nothing is impossible but need time to fine tweak pianoteq.

xav93
06-09-2007, 05:23 AM
Here they are (without the final added reverb):
only_WGPU.mp3 (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demo/only_WGPU.mp3)
only_PTQharmo.mp3 (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demo/only_PTQharmo.mp3)

Put both in your sequencer at same level (0dB) first and then compare all you want.
:)
I updated these files. I made a mistake while exporting and I noticed all notes were doubled. That's no more the case and that's correct now.

Pianoteq
06-09-2007, 03:19 PM
Hi all,

Niclas Fogwall from Modartt here. Thanks to Xavier for a very nice experiment, showing that Pianoteq can be used in conjunction with sampled pianos and not only for solo performance.

We have been monitoring this thread since the very beginning but have chosen not to comment until we have read the many interesting comments from you guys.

What I understand from this experiment is that Xavier intends to make use of the string resonance and cabinet resonance of Pianoteq while keeping all the other sounds as much as possible from the sampled piano. Of course, there are other effects of Pianoteq that cannot be utilized in this type of experiment, such as Pianoteq's playability (up to 127 velocities per note) and the natural repetition of strings in movement. But, having this said, there are indeed some nice things that can come out as well if choosing the sound of the White Grand (in this particular case) or some of the other sample libraries as the core piano sound.

Regarding the tuning issues, there are three tools in Pianoteq for tuning: diapason, octave stretching, and if this is not enough, temperaments or scala files for temperament modifications. Try experimenting with these and you may come up with improved results.

xav93
06-09-2007, 05:53 PM
Thanks to Xavier for a very nice experiment, showing that Pianoteq can be used in conjunction with sampled pianos and not only for solo performance.

:) :) :)



What I understand from this experiment is that Xavier intends to make use of the string resonance and cabinet resonance of Pianoteq
Yes. But it depends on the piano. For exemple with TBO, i prefer to use the impulse of the TBO cabinet. Because dry sound of the pianoteq mixes quite hardly with the dry sound of TBO. So i minimize dry sound of pianoteq, but it also minimize his cabinet resonance. And I maximize sympathetic and global resonances.



Of course, there are other effects of Pianoteq that cannot be utilized in this type of experiment, such as Pianoteq's playability (up to 127 velocities per note) and the natural repetition of strings in movement.
Yes, for sure. But we have at least the repetition effect on sympathetic tones and strings resonance. No?



But, having this said, there are indeed some nice things that can come out as well if choosing the sound of the White Grand (in this particular case) or some of the other sample libraries as the core piano sound
So as it has been already said : what about a VSTi without pianoteq dry sound, to use in additions with sampled pianos? It will be less hard to juggle with all parameters.



Per @ Samplekk - thanks for the marriage proposal. ;) Let's keep in touch.
Hey... No boogie woogie before to say one's evening prayers! (hum... i translate lyrics from a french song...)

MikeInFL
06-10-2007, 02:01 AM
Niclas from Pianotec,

Thanks for taking the time to post and comment! Nice to have discussion with developers.

What xav93 did by combining another library actually was very interesting and I think successful. It just occured to me a suggestion for product development.

How about making a hybrid player- part synth, part HQ piano samples. Let the synth part do the sympathetic resonance, pedal sounds, key sounds, etc and also use high quality piano samples! This would keep the library much smaller. Maybe have option to turn off samples and go back to pianatec standard mode. Switch between the two!

Think is could work? I like Pianotec for it's playability but still want even more piano realism.

Comments?
Mike

droah
06-10-2007, 05:11 AM
Hi to all,
The suggestion of having some sort of hybrid piano, with Pianoteq supplying
the "resonance engine" and loading samples from other libraries, is interesting but wouldn't this be duplicating samplers like K2

K2 can actually supply many of the functionalities of Pianoteq with IR-based
convolutions, reverberations,EQ etc, etc.The only thing missing initally was
sympathetic resonance - but this is now taken care of with Kornel's PSR scripts. All users of K2 will forever be grateful to this geenrous person for sharing his scripts which benefitted not only the users, but
the producers of sampled pianos. What surprised me most is that many sampled libraries producers (including Ivory) don't seem to care much about sympathetic resonance.And judging from the reviews and forum discussions many users also don't seem to care much.

Turning Pianoteq into some sort of sampler - I don't think is a good idea.
Let there be competitions between the various producers to come out with better products. In the end it will be the users who will be the winners.

xav93
06-10-2007, 05:57 AM
Here is the result with TBO (http://jazzphoton.free.fr/Demo/TBO%20+%20PTQ%20harmo%20(essai).mp3) without any added reverb.

Xav

MikeInFL
06-10-2007, 12:13 PM
Sounds good! TBO has a slightly darker tone, which I like. And sounds like the upper registers are in tune.

You say no reverb- I'm assuming you are holding chords in left hand for long periods? How much pedal are you using?

xav93
06-10-2007, 12:20 PM
You say no reverb- I'm assuming you are holding chords in left hand for long periods? How much pedal are you using?
Read my very first post : i explain this playing technique that was only able to do on real acoustic piano... and pianoteq.

Worra
06-11-2007, 04:00 AM
Right now, I can't see any cooperation between SampleTekk and Pianoteq.
Pianoteq works with modelling and SampleTekk wioth traditional sampling.
Xavier has shown on a great way of combining the products, and I can only give my "blessing" to all that would like to try it out!

sen-goku
07-17-2007, 04:15 PM
has anyone tried this with other libraries, too? like artvista, for example?