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chrisr
10-02-2006, 05:46 AM
I'm soon going to leave logic 5 (pc) for either logic 7 (mac) or another PC DAW.

The feature that has always stopped me switching to another DAW package is the Piano roll (which I use extensively to fine tune my performances / correct my poor playing). As far as I can tell, no other package comes close to logic's implementation of this editor.

Specifically what I'm after is simply :

- Velocity information displayed in / on each note block, preferably by colour, for immediate identification. (rather than on a seperate bar graph)

- Good implementation of the right mouse button so that I can quickly change multiple paramaters (eg. position & velocity) without changing tools / windows.

- Visually pleasing / informative UI


Other than switching platform to mac logic, what are my options? Am I wrong to think that Cubase and Sonar are inferior in this particular department. Is it possible to customise them (or any other PC package) to achieve this functionality.

My thoughts at the moment are that PC daws are failing badly in their implementation of this fundamental and seemingly simple function (which is pretty much as old as computer sequencing itself!) - am I wrong?

Chris

kotori
10-02-2006, 06:14 AM
- Velocity information displayed in / on each note block, preferably by colour, for immediate identification. (rather than on a seperate bar graph) Cubase has that. The colour can based on any of velocity, pitch, channel, part, or grid match.


- Good implementation of the right mouse button so that I can quickly change multiple paramaters (eg. position & velocity) without changing tools / windows. In Cubase parameters like position and velocity are displayed right under the toolbar and you can set the values there by entering the value on the keyboard. Or you set the velocity by a single click on the controller lane (what you call a separate bar graph). Position of both start and end is easy to adjust just by clicking on the end and dragging.


- Visually pleasing / informative UI Cubase is ok I think. Some aspects of the UI could certainly get better but I don't find that it gets in my way too much. What I miss is better integration with virtual instruments. Eg. I wish Cubase could be notified of which keyswitches a certain instrument uses, making it possible to provide a better UI for controlling articulation switching. I don't have much experience with other sequencers, so I hope someone else here is going to be able to provide you with advice about how to choose.

Nils

chrisr
10-03-2006, 04:44 AM
Cubase has that. The colour can based on any of velocity, pitch, channel, part, or grid match.

Nils

I didn't know that - and it's just the sort of info I was after, thanks Nils!

Is it possible to set the controller lane to show points instead of bars ? - so that velocity information for more than 1 simultaneous note is shown ? (you can see what I mean below linked from the cubase4 website - the bars overlap - are all the chord notes the same velocity? I can't tell whether I'm just seeing the loudest notes)

http://www.steinberg.net/typo3temp/pics/4622a0526c.jpg

Also are you saying the only two ways to alter velocity are to enter it (per note) on the keyboard, or by moving the mouse down into the controller lane window? There's no option to alter it in the 'main' piano roll itself ? In logic this can be done by assigning the velocity tool to the right mouse button - you just right click a note or group of notes and move the mouse up or down. Done. Also you can easliy reduce or increase the daynamic range of a group of notes in much the same way.

This powerful, simple implemetation of parameter control in the logic piano roll is what has kept me from switching up until now. I always assumed that Steinberg or Cakewalk would just copy those ideas/implementations wholesale one day.

Anyone else want to chip in? Particularly if you've experience with the logic matrix.

Thanks again for you reply Nils!
Chris

kotori
10-03-2006, 05:42 AM
I didn't know that - and it's just the sort of info I was after, thanks Nils!

Is it possible to set the controller lane to show points instead of bars ? - so that velocity information for more than 1 simultaneous note is shown? I don't know of any way to do this.


Also are you saying the only two ways to alter velocity are to enter it (per note) on the keyboard, or by moving the mouse down into the controller lane window? There's no option to alter it in the 'main' piano roll itself ? You can also alter the velocity by using MIDI input. Eg. you can select a chord, click on the velocity field on the toolbar and then press a note of the desired velocity and the velocity of the selected notes will be altered keeping the relative velocities of the selected notes the same. Having to click on the toolbar seems to be an annoying extra step. I don't know if it's possible to avoid this.



Anyone else want to chip in? Particularly if you've experience with the logic matrix. Yes please, I hope more people will share their views on this.

Nils

Brian2112
10-03-2006, 07:43 AM
Sonar 6:


http://scoringhouse.com/GCHM/Proll1.jpg
(Right Click on note brings up the box)

Box Zoomed:
http://scoringhouse.com/GCHM/Pbox.jpg
I prefer to close the bottom tab and work this way. You can see exactly what bar belongs to what note, and select any number of notes and move the bars up or down at the same time:

http://scoringhouse.com/GCHM/Proll2.jpg

kotori
10-03-2006, 08:02 AM
Brian, how would you handle a chord when there are multiple simultaneous notes or when the notes are very close to each other? The Logic solution where you can just right-click on a specific note and drag up/down seems simpler than both Cubase and Sonar, if I'm not missing something.

chrisr
10-03-2006, 09:32 AM
A shot of the Pno Roll on Logic 5 - showing velocities as points in the 'controller lane' (hyperdraw in logic) and colour coded note velocities on screen. Right clicking (hold and drag) a note or notes alters velocity(ies) relative to each other. Right clicking off notes (hold and drag) alters dynamic range of a group of notes (down - compresses/up - expands). It would need a video clip to do it justice really...

I'm really hoping for something with similar visual impact and ease of use. I understand that I might be able to tailor another package to suit - and also that there are very useful things the others have implemented that Logic (particularly v5) doesn't do - but this is 'bread and butter' editing for me.

http://www.webserver.matinee.co.uk/download/public/Logic_Pno_Roll_Velocities.jpg

chrisr
10-03-2006, 10:41 AM
Since you're already up to speed on one of the deepest and most flexible sequencers on the market, why switch?

Lee Blaske

Yes, I may go Mac - but that would mean a change of platform/OS, so either way I've got some fairly big changes ahead. (been putting it off for years...)
I'm happy that the platform change would not be such a big deal. Just like to explore other avenues before I do.

I think all the main DAWs / sequencers out there are pretty impressive. Strange that my biggest concern would be over "basic" midi editing, given the 'whizz-bang!' nature of the many audio delights on offer! I guess that's a reflection of the type of music I write / produce.

I may find that my working practices change...

No doubt there's room for midi editing improvement in all packages. I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been more "idea stealing" of the best bits between rivals - realise it's a complicated affair though...

Thanks all for your input!

(Any other win Logic 5 folks facing the same dilemma your thoughts / experiences would be much appreciated. Do you feel you're missing out on the newest audio developments? Were you happy with the soft/hardware switch you made?)

wind
10-03-2006, 11:11 AM
(Any other win Logic 5 folks facing the same dilemma your thoughts / experiences would be much appreciated. Do you feel you're missing out on the newest audio developments? Were you happy with the soft/hardware switch you made?)

Interesting theme :)

I still stick with Login 5.5.1 on windows as long as possible....

And while I still miss the brilliantly easy event editor from Cakewalk which was the first sequencer ever I used long ago , apart from that I don't feel I miss much "new developments" yet, most VST's work fine . the arrange window gives me a clear overview ( Cubase layout , colours, buttons etc make it seem so complicated for my eyes....)

But the logic win RAM limit and future hardware and OS developments will sooner or later make me switch to .....???
If I would have loads of money maybe to mac,
so probably to another PC daw :-)
I hope the windows vista will be postponed !!

HenrikBJ
10-03-2006, 11:49 AM
(Any other win Logic 5 folks facing the same dilemma your thoughts / experiences would be much appreciated. Do you feel you're missing out on the newest audio developments? ... )

I'm using Logic 5.5.1, and am currently considering my options as well.

I'm planning to use Logic for as long as possible, as the program still fits my needs - but it would definitely be nice to have no 1 GB memory limit.
However, I get along :)

Best regards,
Henrik Jensen

chrisr
10-03-2006, 11:51 AM
I still stick with Login 5.5.1 on windows as long as possible....


I think there might be a significant number of us around, but it's been what... 3 years now?

but I can see that freeze / >1gig ram / multiprocessor-multicore support/ vst3 / 64bit / adc / acid-rex looping / audio snap (warp) / multi-channel (well... maybe not...) / media management / etc...

...could all be things that would improve my work and workflow, despite not being the most important thing to me.

The situation is becoming a little reminiscent of those guys who held onto their Atari's into the 90's. Surely there aren't many of them around anymore?
(*stands to be corrected...)

rabdaddy
10-03-2006, 12:35 PM
This is of great interest to me. I didn't see mention of Midi Scrubbing. Since Studio Vision is gone, I moved to a PC and Cubase. Much to my disappointment Steinberg does not support Midi Scrubbing, even in Cubase 4.

The convention: In the Key Editor - press a modifier key - this turns the cursor into, say, a speaker icon, allowing you to hear midi as you wide across the notes. This makes easy to, for example, quickly find and change voicing and re-harmonize much more intuitively. Cubases "edit-in-place" is very badly implemented AND is in the wrong place. IMO, the arrangement window isn't where serious midi note editing is done, the Key Editor is the logical place for this, so, here's where scrubbing should be.

Sonar does implement Midi Scrubbing by selecting the scrub tool in their key-editor. Not as intuitive as a modifier key but not bad.

I tried the Sonar 5 trial but didn't stick with it. Huge learning curve and lots of drop-outs and erratic behavior and playback stuttering.

When Sonar 6 trial is available, I'll take another shot since Midi Scrubbing is important to me.

Rabdaddy

HenrikBJ
10-03-2006, 01:33 PM
What's the reason you're holding on? To stay with a PC? If that's the case, you could switch to Logic Pro 7, and buy an Intel Mac (which you can quickly switch over to run Windows).

As a hobby musician who have never owned a Mac, I don't feel like switching just because of Logic. On the other hand, learning how to use a completely new sequencer + sampler on the PC is not a tempting idea either.

That's why I'm holding on.

Besides, I have no money! :)

Best regards,
Henrik Jensen

Jibrish
10-03-2006, 05:06 PM
Didn't have Studio Vision but I find the same limitations in Cubase's implementation of midi scrubbing.

Another missing feature, for my money, is the ability to remap measures around a performance... so that the structural tracks can be laid down with a natural flow... instead of in lock step with a metronome.

SAWstudio is the only program doing this (that I know of). The problem is, SAW is almost archaic in many other respects. Especially when it comes to VST integration and... well... basic environment.

Cubase with a more Sonar 6-like midi controller editing; a better midi scrub; and the ability to remap measures around the performance would be nice...

...and maybe a built in version of Finale with complete real-time backward and forward translation between sequence and score...

...to sleep, perchance to dream, ay, there's the rub.

Brian2112
10-03-2006, 05:55 PM
Brian, how would you handle a chord when there are multiple simultaneous notes or when the notes are very close to each other? The Logic solution where you can just right-click on a specific note and drag up/down seems simpler than both Cubase and Sonar, if I'm not missing something.

Thankfully, because of the Kontakt 2 tempo sync bug, this is not an issue for me. Notes are all over the place! - just kidding:p ;) :D
But seriously Nils,
With regard to chords, if the notes are mostly on top of each other, you can lasso them and then use the Pencil tool to essentially do the same thing. Dragging the mouse up and down scales the velocities proportionately. Or you can select one note of the chord and have it affect just that note. For notes that are “off a bit” you can ctrl (or shift – can’t remember) click to select non contiguous notes to add, and do the same thing.
I do like the fact that Cubase, for example, has notes color coded (with the corresponding controller value). Color is used differently in Sonar because you can throw a ton of tracks in one piano roll view with each track having its own color. Color is just used differently. I like the Cubase method, but I also like the Sonar method. Someone should allow both methods (and more).

...2112:)

clonewar
10-05-2006, 02:37 AM
This is of great interest to me. I didn't see mention of Midi Scrubbing. Since Studio Vision is gone, I moved to a PC and Cubase. Much to my disappointment Steinberg does not support Midi Scrubbing, even in Cubase 4.

The convention: In the Key Editor - press a modifier key - this turns the cursor into, say, a speaker icon, allowing you to hear midi as you wide across the notes. This makes easy to, for example, quickly find and change voicing and re-harmonize much more intuitively. Cubases "edit-in-place" is very badly implemented AND is in the wrong place. IMO, the arrangement window isn't where serious midi note editing is done, the Key Editor is the logical place for this, so, here's where scrubbing should be.

Sonar does implement Midi Scrubbing by selecting the scrub tool in their key-editor. Not as intuitive as a modifier key but not bad.

I tried the Sonar 5 trial but didn't stick with it. Huge learning curve and lots of drop-outs and erratic behavior and playback stuttering.

When Sonar 6 trial is available, I'll take another shot since Midi Scrubbing is important to me.

Rabdaddy

I use midi scrubbing all the time to find out of place notes in dense arrangements, or to track down other things that don't sound right to my ears.

Just about every tool in Sonar has a keyboard shortcut. In the piano roll view you just press B for midi scrub, S for select, D for draw. Couldn't be any easier..

clonewar
10-05-2006, 02:56 AM
Another missing feature, for my money, is the ability to remap measures around a performance... so that the structural tracks can be laid down with a natural flow... instead of in lock step with a metronome.

SAWstudio is the only program doing this (that I know of). The problem is, SAW is almost archaic in many other respects. Especially when it comes to VST integration and... well... basic environment.


I've been playing with the SawStudio demo (for me it's the best software I've ever used for audio mixing, it feels like I'm using an analog console.. although I agree that it's behind in VSTi implimentation, track freeze, and some other things we take for granted) and I'm just learning about tempo mapping in MidiWorkshop. It looks like it lets you, for example, play a piano track freehand, without a metronome, and then set the tempo for the rest of the project around that first track.

The audio snap feature in Sonar 6 looks like it might do the same thing based on what I've seen in the YouTube videos. I believe that audio snap lets you set the tempo of the project, including midi tracks, to an audio track.

JT3_Jon
10-05-2006, 04:10 AM
Another missing feature, for my money, is the ability to remap measures around a performance... so that the structural tracks can be laid down with a natural flow... instead of in lock step with a metronome.

SAWstudio is the only program doing this (that I know of). [/I]

You can do this in Logic using its "beat mapping" feature (which works with audio and midi), and I remember doing the same with DP on a college system in 2003 (dont know the feature name anymore but you simply placed the bar lines where you wanted them in the midi score editor, and the tempo auto adjusts). I would imagine Sonar and Cubase could do this too, as it seems like a standard feature now, but I could be wrong :)

Its very cool feature. I dont use it as frequently as I probably should (as my performance chops are not that great) but when I do its proven very helpful indeed!

Jibrish
10-05-2006, 10:05 AM
clonewar and JT3 Jon -

Point's well taken on the ability to fit a tempo map to audio... thing is, mapping to midi is far less tedious and much more open ended... kind of like the ability to change the sound on a performance after the fact, in this case, note beginnings and durations are readily clear and movable so beat and measure editing can be integrated with note editing (and you can still edit the samples).

There are work-around to be sure... most of which I've tried and/or still use. None (that I've found) are very efficient or even useful.

I'll look again, but so far SAWstudio's Midi Workshop is the only thing close to a solution I've seen.

(JT3 Jon - Digital Performer? 2003? ...are we talking about the same thing?)

Cheers.

Looper
10-05-2006, 12:34 PM
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I do like the fact that Cubase, for example, has notes color coded (with the corresponding controller value). Color is used differently in Sonar because you can throw a ton of tracks in one piano roll view with each track having its own color. Color is just used differently. I like the Cubase method, but I also like the Sonar method. Someone should allow both methods (and more).

...2112:)

Cubase allows you choose whether you want to use color to distinguish notes by Pitch (C's are blue, F's are Yellow), or Velocity (purple is low, red is high), or Channel , or Part (bass track is orange, piano is green, etc.).

I've used (and still use) the key editors in Logic and in Cubase and for my particular workflow I find Cubase (since SX1) to be far superior. But it all depends on which features are important to you.

JT3_Jon
10-05-2006, 02:48 PM
(JT3 Jon - Digital Performer? 2003? ...are we talking about the same thing?)

I must not be fully understanding your question. :) I thought the process you were talking about involved recording a midi track without a tempo/metronome to achieve "a natural flow", and then placing the imaginary bar lines, or "beats," to figure out what tempo your actually playing in, allowing you to then easily record more midi tracks using a metronome if you wanted. This frees you up from using a steady metronome for recording midi tracks, while still giving you the ability to place the bar lines necessary to score parts or get metronome information when needed (which is brilliant IMO).

If this is indeed what you are talking about, I know for sure Logic and DP offer features to get it done. However, this may not be what your talking about :)

Edit: I did a web search on midi workshop and found this description of the feature I believe your describing:


A unique measure mapping feature allows freeform performances to be easily and instantly mapped to a measure grid, which automatically calculates tempo variations, and allows for perfect Conductor/Click Track creation. The data may then be set or averaged into a perfectly smooth performance, allowing easy orchestration or quantizing of added data in perfect time.

This measure mapping feature is what I was referring to, and is available in both Logic and DP. Is this the feature you were referring to?

Jibrish
10-05-2006, 03:52 PM
I must not be fully understanding your question... Is this the feature you were referring to?Haha... actually I think it's quite the other way around... sounds like it's me that's having trouble understanding... thanks for your patience and what sounds like good news.

Logic is the one program I haven't looked at recently because I'm all PC, and well... I'm sure you know that story.

I'll take a better look into DP.

Peace.

JT3_Jon
10-05-2006, 06:10 PM
Haha... actually I think it's quite the other way around... sounds like it's me that's having trouble understanding... thanks for your patience and what sounds like good news.

Logic is the one program I haven't looked at recently because I'm all PC, and well... I'm sure you know that story.

I'll take a better look into DP.

Peace.

No prob! Glad I could help (I hope :)

Since you're on PC, I would also look for this feature in Sonar and Cubase as well. Usually when 2 or 3 manufacturers have the same feature, all the big ones do! I would post the description I found from the midi workshop website at cubase and sonar forums and see if they also have this feature. I would imagine they do!

Best of luck to you!

Aaron Dirk
10-05-2006, 07:01 PM
None of the others has tempo/measure mapping like MIDIWorkshop.... I wish they did.

Few have work arounds that are quite laborsome, some have auto tempo that is worthless unless you tap out a simple tempo track, but a piano track is a waste of time with it

MIDIworkshop method is as simple as point and click.

Jibrish
10-06-2006, 06:36 AM
...I would also look for this feature in Sonar and Cubase as well...
I broke my crayola on that one...

oh well...

at least we tried to get on the same page.

Peace.

Jibrish
10-06-2006, 06:41 AM
None of the others has tempo/measure mapping like MIDIWorkshop.... I wish they did.

Few have work arounds that are quite laborsome, some have auto tempo that is worthless unless you tap out a simple tempo track, but a piano track is a waste of time with it

MIDIworkshop method is as simple as point and click.Thanks for the clarification, Aaron. Guess I kind of thought that was the case.

Daryl
10-06-2006, 06:45 AM
None of the others has tempo/measure mapping like MIDIWorkshop.... I wish they did.

Few have work arounds that are quite laborsome, some have auto tempo that is worthless unless you tap out a simple tempo track, but a piano track is a waste of time with it

MIDIworkshop method is as simple as point and click.
I don't quite understand what you want. Cubase has various features that can auto map tempos, whether to pre-existing audio, MIDI or timecode. In fact even Cubase VST had a rudimentary Tempo map feature.

D

robin123
10-06-2006, 07:39 AM
I dont know what will make the best piano roll, but check out FL studio (http://www.flstudio.com), it's got the best piano roll(sure, I'm not familier with other piano rolls, but I wonder if any other piano roll can beat it).

Jibrish
10-06-2006, 07:57 AM
I don't quite understand what you want. Cubase has various features that can auto map tempos, whether to pre-existing audio, MIDI or timecode. In fact even Cubase VST had a rudimentary Tempo map feature.

DTempo maps are another thing.
When you change the tempo map... all corresponding midi data changes with it.

This is what is wanted:

1. Set the sequencer to 120 (arbitrarily (could be anything)) and turn off the click
2. Record a performance that is either faster or slower than 120 with a varied tempo
3. Set (reset) the beginning bar of each measure to the corresponding note/phrase without altering the original tempo, note durations, or other performance parameters in which it was played

The goal here is to preserve the original midi performance and build the sequence/score around that. So that the performance can be speed up or slowed down at will (even spontaneously) without toe tapping or presetting tempo. Just press record, play when you're ready, and set all your measures and tempo after the fact.

Probably the easiest way to see this, is to try out SAWstudio's Midi WorkShop function called "adjust measure map" under the metronome icon.

But it's probably a bit hard to see the differences if it wasn't something you normally use... or had already been looking for.

Jaspo
10-06-2006, 08:03 AM
I am a firm believer in buying hardware to fit software. I am not a professional so I can neither justify nor afford that luxury.

If Logic is your sequencer of choice and you can afford to switch platforms, why would you even consider switching Daw's. The learning curve has a time cost associated with it. I realize that money is always a factor, but if you can justify the expense, the answer would seem to be (excuse the pun) logical.

Keep in mind I am a PC programmer and Sonar user from way back.

jplanet
10-06-2006, 05:36 PM
I just joined this forum to post this:

Try Tracktion. It's MIDI editor allows for very easy viewing and changing of individual note velocities. Not to mention that it is incredibly intuitive, stable, inexpensive, and full-featured.

You may miss some boutique features, but it will be cross-platform, and I really think that if you liked Logic on PC, that you will enjoy using this, too...

It is often overlooked because it is not in the price range of the major sequencers, but suffice to say that I own Nuendo (really), and I have only opened it once or twice in the past year since I've gotten Tracktion...

dnortana
10-06-2006, 08:56 PM
....
Another missing feature, for my money, is the ability to remap measures around a performance... so that the structural tracks can be laid down with a natural flow... instead of in lock step with a metronome.

SAWstudio is the only program doing this (that I know of). .. .[/I]

Digital Performer has this feature, with a very flexible implementation. Of course, DP is a Mac program.

Trond

Daryl
10-07-2006, 01:40 AM
Tempo maps are another thing.
When you change the tempo map... all corresponding midi data changes with it.
No, this only happens in Cubase when the individual track is set to "Musical". You can map a MIDI track the same way as you do with audio. In fact, you can do it almost as quickly as in real time...!

D

Jibrish
10-07-2006, 08:21 AM
No, this only happens in Cubase when the individual track is set to "Musical". You can map a MIDI track the same way as you do with audio. In fact, you can do it almost as quickly as in real time...!

DHi Daryl,
Would it be possible to describe the path to this function? And maybe the basic method of how you are moving the begining of measures to fit to the midi performance?

Thanks.

Jibrish
10-07-2006, 08:35 AM
...Of course, DP is a Mac program.

TrondMac vs PC is kind of like a war in the middle east... it just never quite goes away.

Jibrish
10-07-2006, 08:39 AM
Did I say Middle East?
I meant middle eastern United States... you know... North Carolina.

Daryl
10-07-2006, 09:29 AM
Hi Daryl,
Would it be possible to describe the path to this function? And maybe the basic method of how you are moving the begining of measures to fit to the midi performance?

Thanks.
Difficult to explain if you don't know how Cubase works. Basically you treat the MIDI track as an audio track (by setting the type to be linear instead of musical) and use the Warp Tool to construct a tempo map until all the MIDI notes fall on the correct beats.

D

Aaron Dirk
10-07-2006, 10:29 AM
http://www.sawstudio.com/MidiWorkShop/TempoMapping.htm

With MIDIWorkShop- in the Piano roll, you can grab the first measure line and drag it to the start of the first note, then you can grab second measure line and drag it to where the second begins in your MIDI performance and so on.... All of this is being done from the piano roll! either the tempo remains in tact or it adjusts to keep the performance in tact. What else does this like this? Everything else has cumbersome counterproductive means to handle this, auto mapping features only work if you tap out a simple track for it to go by, and then even then....

I should note, I don't have SAWstudio or MIDIWorkshop. I've only checked out the demo. But it is this feature that I am attracted to it
I have DP, Sonar, StudioVisionPro, and have access to Cubase, Logic.

Daryl
10-07-2006, 11:12 AM
OK, I'll try to explain how it is done in Cubase.

Play your free MIDI
Set your snap value to bar, beat or quantize (in case you want to get every 16th note in time with the Tempo track)
Make sure that the track is in Linear mode
Select Warp Tool
Hold shift (to lock the tempo points)
Click the barline (beat etc.) and drag it to the start of your note that you want to be at this point.
Go through the whole track doing this. Takes no time at all.

D

Aaron Dirk
10-07-2006, 11:33 AM
very cool! I'm glad someone else picked up on this!

....figures, it would be one I didn't have here:D

Jibrish
10-07-2006, 11:57 AM
Hmmm, well, my version of cubase just won't do it. Maybe I just need an update.

Thanks Daryl, JT3 Jon and Aaron.

Daryl
10-07-2006, 12:33 PM
I'm using Nuendo 3, but the MIDI features are supposed to be the same as Cubase SX. I seem to remember that the "lighter" versions of Cubase didn't have all the Warp features.

If any of you have access to Cubase do look at the Warp feature as it's one of the great things about the program. You can timestretch audio in exactly the same way, construct a tempo track to audio almost in real time and "Warp" audio and MIDI to fit film, all with the same tool. It takes a bit of getting used to and until one understands the mechanics it is possible to get strange results, but it is a very powerful tool, and one that I wouldn't be without,

D

Aaron Dirk
10-07-2006, 02:40 PM
I just went and tried Timewarp on Cubase and it does work.

thanks Daryl

Jibrish
10-07-2006, 03:30 PM
And, yea, the good D, and the fair JT3, they were annointed,
And lo, all manner of gibberish and such did genuflect,
And harketh thee as twenty thousand slaves
did bow (full throng mind you) in the desert sand,
and the tired sun did wane,
on the land of NS

...or something like that.

Peace.

Daryl
10-07-2006, 05:17 PM
LOL

Now lengthen your message to at least 10 characters...

D

peter269
10-08-2006, 02:42 PM
I'm soon going to leave logic 5 (pc) for either logic 7 (mac) or another PC DAW.

The feature that has always stopped me switching to another DAW package is the Piano roll (which I use extensively to fine tune my performances / correct my poor playing). As far as I can tell, no other package comes close to logic's implementation of this editor.

Specifically what I'm after is simply :

- Velocity information displayed in / on each note block, preferably by colour, for immediate identification. (rather than on a seperate bar graph)

- Good implementation of the right mouse button so that I can quickly change multiple paramaters (eg. position & velocity) without changing tools / windows.

- Visually pleasing / informative UI


Other than switching platform to mac logic, what are my options? Am I wrong to think that Cubase and Sonar are inferior in this particular department. Is it possible to customise them (or any other PC package) to achieve this functionality.

My thoughts at the moment are that PC daws are failing badly in their implementation of this fundamental and seemingly simple function (which is pretty much as old as computer sequencing itself!) - am I wrong?

Chris

Getting back to this question, I moved from Logic 5 to Cubase SX back to Logic 7.1.1 on the Mac. Having made this move, l'll share some thoughts based on your question.

Beyond the piano roll editor, I think you have to look at system integration issues for the whole studio today, and where things look like they'll be in a year when Vista is the new PC production OS, and all the VSTi's are upgraded.

Yamaha/Steinberg has really done it right with their input:
http://www.steinberg.net/547+M52087573ab0.html
http://www.steinberg.net/fileadmin/redaktion/PDF/multiprocessing/Multiprocessing_Tech_Info.pdf

So has Sonar:
http://www.cakewalk.com/PCResource/x64_build.asp

For Native Instruments:
I couldn't find anything on their website that discussed performance under single or multiprocessors.

Tascam GVI:
According to the web site, today, will not operate in multiprocessor mode.

Vienna Instruments System Requirements:
http://www.vsl.co.at/de-at/69/33.vsl
Found in the Vienna Instruments Forum, you'll find two threads on PC optimization and one labeled Information Thread which covers machine benchmarks the company performed and published.

Connectivity:
You need to consider: MIDI interfaces, MIDIoverLAN, FXTeleport (if you stay PC only).

This is probably more than you want to consider, but with the amount of product out and coming out at NAMM (AES is finishing this weekend!) in just a few weeks, I would encourage you to take the long view and really look at what's happening in the field beyond piano roll edit.

PA

Jibrish
10-09-2006, 07:51 AM
Getting back to this question...Haha ...yes... please.

One caveat to Chris however (on the larger view) might be: Competitive-crossgrades.
They help to lighten the decision up quite a bit. (and at least at this point (for DAWs) they are nearly seemless).


Then... as far as the weightiest of weighty... Mac or PC?

PC (of course)
- it's open source...
- plays nice with others (not-proprietary)
- the steadfast home of colaboration (once called "compatible") (not-proprietary)
- and besides... Gary Garritan has one!!!!!! (i think)

Peace.

chrisr
10-09-2006, 09:38 AM
Getting back to this question, I moved from Logic 5 to Cubase SX back to Logic 7.1.1 on the Mac. Having made this move, l'll share some thoughts based on your question.

PA

Thanks Peter, and thanks everyone for your input. Have been away - long weekend...but will read through all.

Will follow those links later this eve Peter - but yes I agree that there are a lot of other considerations besides piano roll / GUI.