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buzzripper
11-16-2005, 10:35 PM
Hi -
I just got East West Symphonic Gold, and I'm having a slight issue with using midi volume with it. The ambience is built right into the sounds, so when I do any kind of midi volume adjustment on a part it adjusts the reverb/hall sound as well, and the effect is very unnatural. I just want the instrument volume to change - is there a better way to do swells etc. with this library besides using midi volume? How do I adjust the volume of the instrument but not the ambience? Should I just get the sound dry and use an external reverb?

Thanks!!

buzz

Scott Cairns
11-17-2005, 07:23 AM
Actually, Ive noticed that in a few patches too, if you lower CC11, you lose the ambience level too. The way around it for some patches at least is to leave the mod wheel up (like a sus DXF patch) and in that case you can use CC11.

For stacs though, Im pretty sure you lose the release trail volume when you dip the midi volume.

Perhaps this has been addressed in PRO?

Chris Hein
11-17-2005, 02:33 PM
Should I just get the sound dry and use an external reverb?
This would be the same effect. The external reverb would be lower on lower volume.

If you own Kontakt 1 or Kontakt 2, there is a way to do what you want.
Open the group editor, be shure to uncheck "edit all groups",
select the release trail keygroup, press the "modulation" button in the amplifier modul,
and delete the expression (cc11) modulator. Thats it.
Now you can use cc7 Volume as overall volume and use cc11 for the balance between sound and release trails.

I tryed it, works fine.

Interesting effect, thanks for the hint.
Sounds like a player walking away with his instrument.

Chris Hein

buzzripper
11-17-2005, 11:16 PM
Sorry, I said 'midi volume' but I took a look and my expression pedal is using CC11, guess I was just assuming it was 7. But on my system, turning down CC11 brings down everything, reverb trails and all. I haven't tweaked anything (don't know how to yet), so I don't think I've messed up any settings. And setting the mod wheel all the way up/down didn't make any difference. Should CC11 bring the instrument level up/down without affecting the ambience tails, like when using a reverb? I understand that a lower instr volume will result in a lower tail, but it shouldn't cut off all tails, like it does now. It's acting just like a straight output volume (actually, just like cc7 :) )

Any ideas?

thanks again...

Rosie
11-24-2005, 07:34 PM
I'd be interested in hearing more on this topic, too. I'm not sure I can hear a difference at all using CC11, now I've discovered at least how to create a MIDI envelope for it...I use EWQLSO Gold as a DXi synth in Sonar 4 (meaning I do not have Kontakt :( ) I get frustrated with the static sound of my music, though. It tends to sound flat and mechanical, which drives me crazy since I hear something else in my head!!! Can anyone tell me how to fix this?

Chadwick
11-25-2005, 03:35 PM
You won't hear any difference between Midi Volume (CC 07) and Midi Expression (CC 11). They both drop the level of the intrument. If the reverb you're listening to is in that instrument, it will also change in level.

The only solution to this is to separate the sample sound from the reverb wash - which in your case probably means an expensive update to Platinum...

buzzripper
11-26-2005, 12:53 AM
Geez, is this common? I'm no pro like a lot of people on this forum (far from it), but it seems to me one of the most basic things of trying to make an orchestra sound real is dynamics, no? Having the ambience in the sound, and go up and down with the instr level sure doesn't sound very natural to me. Sure it's masked when you've got a lot of things going on, but sometimes you don't have a lot of things going on! Well, whatever, can't complain too much with the price I paid for it, but seems like such a basic thing, wish there was a way to control the inst separate from the ambience (like on platinum, I guess). Is this what Giga gives you with the built-in convolution reverb it has? I suppose it doesn't matter, if the sample has ambience in it, there's no taking it out....

Well, it's a great library anyway. Thanks for the info!

buzz

Markleford
11-26-2005, 01:31 AM
Having the ambience in the sound, and go up and down with the instr level sure doesn't sound very natural to me.Me neither, particularly with fast sforzando-like changes. Moreover, if you attempt pitch modulation effects with the ambience burned into the sample, the pitch of the reverb will also be affected! Then again, I suppose they expect you to use provided articulations for this sort of stuff, but then you're constrained by the time-envelopes of those articulations rather than being able to "conduct" them yourself.

I'm really hoping that the emergence of resource-friendly convolution reverbs will encourage more dry-recorded libraries.

- m

T. S.
11-26-2005, 01:36 AM
If your useing the Kompakt player that comes with Gold then I don't know how much help this will be.

I use Gold in Kontakt 2 and one thing I've noticed is that the Volume in the Amplifier module is lower for Gold than it is for other libraries. This is not the Main Volume slider (cc7) that you see in the instrument header in K2 but is a separate Volume Knob (usually controled by cc11) on the Amplifier Module. On the Kompakt Player I kon't think you can see this control nor have access to it.

Since cc11 is more of a fine control acting and based uppon cc7 (this includes the separate Amplifier setting too) then cc11 will only give you a maximum based on cc7 and the Amplifier setting (in the case of Gold, a -6db).

Examineing Gold In K2, the Amplifier Knob is usually set at anywhere from a -6.0db to -12.0db. To compensate for this I usually increase the main volume (cc7) to a +3db or even +6db. Doing this will give you much more control and expression with cc11.

T.S.

Chadwick
11-26-2005, 01:55 AM
Keep in mind that EWQLSO is designed to allow for choices in this area.

Platinum, with a choice of close, stage and far miking is probably the ideal version in terms of allowing users to 'fit' the sample type to their personal approach. If you want the samples separated from their room's reverb, you use the close miked samples and then put, say, a Gigastudio convolution reverb over the top. This way varying instrument levels doesn't affect the reverb level.

Gold has always been a compromise in order to provide the same samples at a bargain price. In this case, one of the significant compromises is mic perspective choice. This is a clever economy, as removing the other two mic perspectives allows you to cut the number of samples supplied by two thirds - without having to sacrifice a single multi sampled instrument if you don't want to.

If Gold had been made up of only the dryer close miked samples, I guarantee there would have been more complaints about dead sounding samples than there are about the lack of separation of room ambience from the samples.

In the long run, tech advances will make convolution of dry samples the preferred choice, but in the short term EW decided that the marriage of room and sample was a more appealing approach.

Chris Hein
12-01-2005, 05:55 PM
How do I adjust the volume of the instrument but not the ambience?

This should be what you want:
http://www.wizardserver.de/forum/Gold_Oboe/Gold_Oboe.mp3
I just raised cc 11 during the first version.
In the second version I faded cc07 to from 127 to 0 and cc11 from 0 to 127
Nice effect, sounds like the player walks with his instrument out of the room, straight to the next bar.

Its done as discribed above.
I modified the patch, so you can use cc07 as overall volume
and cc11 as a kind of reverb slider, controlling the release trail volume.

As an example, here is a modifed patch for the oboe:
http://www.wizardserver.de/forum/Gold_Oboe/F%20SOB%20keyswitch%20C0-G0!.nki
(right click to download)

Simply drag the patch into your Gold instruments folder, and you can use it in the kompakt-player.
If you own kontakt, just have a look how I changed the program.
Its done with 2 clicks.

If anyone likes to get other patches, I could do it for you.

Chris Hein

Will Roget
12-01-2005, 10:58 PM
I feel like with a little elbow grease, you can adjust ambience all you want in EWQL Gold/Silver. For sustained patches, it has the releases (where most of the perceived ambience comes from) on a seperate group. In the Kompakt player, you can choose to only edit that one group, and increase/decrease its volume (ambient presence), decay/sustain/release (reverb time), or velocity sensitivity (ambient response) seperately from that of the sustain group. If you're using it in Kontakt, you can even go to the release group and give it a seperate controller for volume, so that you can change the ambience level in realtime as you're sequencing.

Changing ambience/reverb for staccato patches is actually even easier. All you need to do is fudge around with the decay/sustain/release times, eventually modelling the reverb to your liking. A presence boost in EQ can also help give the impression of a closer mic. Or if you really wanna use your impulses, you can just boost everyone's presence in EQ, turn down the release groups completely (or just delete them if you're in Kontakt), and adjust the sustain groups' releases to compensate.


This is why I really like EWQL Silver - it blends really well, and with a little tweaking you can "fake" the mic positioning features from Platinum to a good degree, without needing 3-4 computers to run it. It's small and efficient, but surprisingly customizable once you get under the hood. I guess it's kind of like how a lot of people love their old Volkswagen Beetles. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

pmwaring
12-02-2005, 04:31 AM
... Having the ambience in the sound, and go up and down with the instr level sure doesn't sound very natural to me.

Imagine you are standing in a large hall. Whisper some words, how much hall reverb do you hear? Now shout as loud as you can, I'm sure that you'll hear a lot more reverberation now!

buzzripper
12-02-2005, 09:08 AM
Imagine you are standing in a large hall. Whisper some words, how much hall reverb do you hear? Now shout as loud as you can, I'm sure that you'll hear a lot more reverberation now!

Sure, but if I shout a word really loud, then immediately whisper a word after that, does the whisper immediately cut off the ambience of the shout that should be continuing for another 5 secs or so? It does in Gold....

buzzripper
12-02-2005, 09:09 AM
This should be what you want:
http://www.wizardserver.de/forum/Gold_Oboe/Gold_Oboe.mp3
Chris Hein

Thanks for the advice, Chris, I'll this out this weekend. Nice to know there are some options.


buzz

buzzripper
12-02-2005, 09:12 AM
I feel like with a little elbow grease, you can adjust ambience all you want in EWQL Gold/Silver....

Thanks Will, you really have your arms around this thing. Sounds like more tweaking than I want to deal with (I get enough of that programming all day!), but I'll try it out, I know sometimes these things look worse than they really are.

Thanks!

buzz

matto
12-02-2005, 02:06 PM
Sure, but if I shout a word really loud, then immediately whisper a word after that, does the whisper immediately cut off the ambience of the shout that should be continuing for another 5 secs or so? It does in Gold....
Actually this is only true for some patches. The shouting/whispering analogy is more akin to velocity, and if you play a fff trumpet note followed by a pp trumpet note (using velocity), the ambience of the loud note most certainly does NOT get cut off.
Also, using DXF patches you can get very impressive crescendi/diminuendi without any ambience problems.
There are certain specific things that don't work well with ambient samples, but those have been so thoroughly covered, for years now, and in a multitude of "dry vs ambient" and "VSL vs EWQL" threads (on this forum and elsewhere), that I'm a bit surprised you wouldn't have investigated these issues before purchasing one or the other...

matto

buzzripper
12-02-2005, 05:12 PM
Actually this is only true for some patches. The shouting/whispering analogy is more akin to velocity, and if you play a fff trumpet note followed by a pp trumpet note (using velocity), the ambience of the loud note most certainly does NOT get cut off.
Also, using DXF patches you can get very impressive crescendi/diminuendi without any ambience problems.
There are certain specific things that don't work well with ambient samples, but those have been so thoroughly covered, for years now, and in a multitude of "dry vs ambient" and "VSL vs EWQL" threads (on this forum and elsewhere), that I'm a bit surprised you wouldn't have investigated these issues before purchasing one or the other...

matto

You're right, Matto, the analogy is to velocity, not volume, and Gold doesn't have a problem there. But for sustained notes this doesn't apply. Don't know really what the dxf patches are and how they help get you good crescendi/diminuendi, but thanks for the tip I'll look into it. I'm sure I could have done more research, but, I did do some research, listened to the demos, saw that I could get Gold for 1/3 the price of Opus 1, and dove in.

In any case, I'm not really all that upset about it, like I said in my original post I can't complain too much for the money I spent, and I'm just a newbie with orchestral composing anyway. I was just wondering if there was something I could do with the product to be able to go in after the fact and add in some swells and dynamics with my exp pedal, and not have the ambience going along for the ride. And from the looks of a few posts here there are some workarounds. Overall this collection is great for me, for where I am now, I'm having a ball, I just love composing for an 'orchestra'!


buzz

matto
12-02-2005, 05:43 PM
Don't know really what the dxf patches are and how they help get you good crescendi/diminuendi, but thanks for the tip I'll look into it.

buzz,

The dxf patches are "dynamic crossfade patches" where the modwheel crossfades between the different "loudness" levels, rather than velocity. It works really well for all kinds of ensemble sustains. Try the 6fhorn DXF patch for example and you'll be able to get impressive french horn swells and expressive lines.
They default to modwheel control, but I'm sure your sequencer could convert your foot pedal output to modwheel if you prefer to use that.
I think you'll be able to do a lot of the dynamic stuff you're trying to achieve with dxf patches. Only thing is it doesn't work well for solo instruments in exposed passages, since you can usually hear that there's more than one sample playing at a time.

matto