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View Full Version : Gift : "the real harmonic script" by O.FRAPPIER



Olivier
04-19-2005, 01:30 PM
deleted due to condidential

Brian2112
04-19-2005, 03:03 PM
That is most kind of you to share this Olivier! Thank you so much.

I think that Kontakt has become the sampler for pianos.

...2112:)

Michiel Post
04-19-2005, 04:54 PM
Hi Olivier,
That is most generous and exactly what will make the Kontakt2 scripting option such a powerful addition: an open platform for plug-in scripts like yours.
I think you could make your scripts donationware (people can donate to you for your contributions with something as simple as PayPal). Let me know if you need a webspace to host them.

I -for one- canīt wait to try your scripts, thankx again!

maszat
04-19-2005, 06:15 PM
great script , Olivier !
I think I see places for improvement and have questions because at certain places I don't fully agree with your model - I continue the conversation in private email.

by the way can someone lend me a grand piano to test some of my resonance theory things ;)

regards

Olivier
04-20-2005, 04:46 AM
here the script :
V3.30 updated at 20-04-2005

look in the top

:)

Olivier
04-20-2005, 06:55 AM
here the script :
V3.30 updated at 20-04-2005

look in the top

:)

Sorry, now 3.31 !

look at up

:)

Hardy Heern
04-20-2005, 06:57 AM
Thank you so much Olivier. An act of extreme generosity....you are a gentleman and deserve recognition for your work on improvements of sampled pianos.

Thank you

Frank

Michiel Post
04-20-2005, 07:58 AM
I'm testing the script right now! WOW, what a great one....

Olivier
04-20-2005, 08:02 AM
I'm testing the script right now! WOW, what a great one....

I will post a fix tonight.

Still a little bug.

The rules between keys are for pedal up and in the release of key and pedal.

and i've to add rules for the first keys (first 8ths)

falcon1
04-20-2005, 08:09 AM
I don't have Kontakt2, so I'm curious of what this script does. :)

Raindog
04-20-2005, 08:12 AM
Sorry to be such a stupid person. But how do I use the script? Does it work with every sampled piano?
Thanks for any help
Raindog

Michiel Post
04-20-2005, 08:50 AM
...works on any piano: open the piano in K2. Enter the script editor.
Select an empty script slot (make all other empty if they are not).
Select Edit and copy and paste the above script text in the editor field.
Press apply and your ready for symp resonance.
You can save the script under a name if you like.

Rob Elliott
04-20-2005, 09:07 AM
I also do not have K2 yet. Can someone post a 'with and without' this script so that we can hear the difference.

Rob

FAL
04-20-2005, 09:51 AM
Am I the only one who has no idea what the harmonic script will do? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Raindog
04-20-2005, 09:58 AM
...works on any piano: open the piano in K2. Enter the script editor.
Select an empty script slot (make all other empty if they are not).
Select Edit and copy and paste the above script text in the editor field.
Press apply and your ready for symp resonance.
You can save the script under a name if you like.

Thanks very much Michiel for the detailed explanation. At the beginning Olivier mentions another script you need:

Important :
you have to load another script "Utilities/Self Mask.nkp" (Author: Xavier Bidault)in the same

Any idea what this means
Best regards and thanks
Raindog

Michiel Post
04-20-2005, 09:58 AM
It adds sympathetic resonance. Do a search on this forum for "sympathetic resonance" and you'll get all the answers.

Olivier
04-20-2005, 10:35 AM
Thanks very much Michiel for the detailed explanation. At the beginning Olivier mentions another script you need:

Important :
you have to load another script "Utilities/Self Mask.nkp" (Author: Xavier Bidault)in the same

Any idea what this means
Best regards and thanks
Raindog



I will post another version. Harmonic only between keys
pedal up and whitin the release of the pedal down.
(whitout Utilities/Self Mask.nkp )
Like a real piano.

V3.33 soon (at the top) take a look later

David Ferris
04-20-2005, 02:25 PM
I searched for sympathetic resonance but didn't find a thread started by Xavier. Can anybody point me to this thread?

DavidH

Olivier
04-20-2005, 02:27 PM
oops,

3.33 version posted (up)

http://www.audiolivepro.com/harmonics_3.33.nkp

http://www.audiolivepro.com/harmonics.JPG

Regards,

Olivier

Brian2112
04-20-2005, 03:30 PM
I searched for sympathetic resonance but didn't find a thread started by Xavier. Can anybody point me to this thread?

DavidH

Utilities/Self Mask.nkp is included in the Kontakt 2 content. Look in the script presets menu. You will see "utilities". Self Mask.nkp is in there.

...2112:)

Olivier
04-20-2005, 03:32 PM
Utilities/Self Mask.nkp is included in the Kontakt 2 content. Look in the script presets menu. You will see "utilities". Self Mask.nkp is in there.

...2112:)


thanks Brian !

but in 3.33 version you don't have to use this script.Utilities/Self Mask.nkp is
All others script in the rack should be at empty.

:)

maszat
04-20-2005, 10:20 PM
OK, so Olivier has inpired me to create my own script - even before he posted his version on this site. Ever since that day we are messaging each other and we work on the scripts parallell, giving feedback to each other. Just a few hours ago he found a major bug in my script ( C3 and C4 together ) that I corrected now.

I give him credit for the ORIGINAL IDEA and the Inspiration, and thank him for the feedback.

My goal is to see all our ideas and the perfect final script in Olivier's new Steinway that will be one of the best sampled pianos ever :) I can hardly wait to play it.

But, I also would like to share my script with all of you for testing and further feedback, so here it is !

Please note that as we speak we still have several design and modelling differences between the 2 of us, my script althou similar, not identical to his approach ! Try it :)

regards
Kornel Mezo
alias maszat

[CODE]
{
This is NOT the latest greatest version of the script. It is shared for educational purposes and to demonstrate my approach to the problem.
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

====================
Piano Sympathetic Resonance Script v1.8
last modified 2005 April 20

The script was inspired by Olivier Frappier

Script written by Kornel Mezo

Please do not use this script in commercial products unless you contact me first.
http://www.mezo.com
====================
}

maszat
04-20-2005, 10:58 PM
And here is the explanation of the UI parameters :

Number of overtones calculated : reduce the number as needed if you have polyphony problems, then less resonant notes are created.

dB parameters : attenuation for each overtone, 1st overtone, 2nd etc.

Fade in and out : the delay of the resonant note

Display area : shows the sympathetic resonant notes for your last key played on the piano

Keyboard on : play the notes that you play on the keyboard, or don't play them

Resonance on : enables symp resonance, or not

fizbin
04-21-2005, 12:07 AM
Sorry about the indentation, I can not preserve the nice look because this message board reformats the text.


You can preserve the formatting if you enclose it with code tags instead of quote tags -

[code] followed by your script then a closing tag

SimuAndy
04-21-2005, 02:25 AM
Is Sympathetic Resonance where the harmonics from one note being struck will cause other strings unstruck to also vibrate at their appropriate harmonic tone?

An easy way to find this effect on a real piano: hold down the C key two octaves below middle C, but don't hit it hard enough to cause any tone. Now press the sustain pedal, and do a quick C G C E G C starting at the C below middle C. Keeping the C1 key down, release the sustain pedal.

You should hear very light tones of the C chord still resonating.

Olivier
04-21-2005, 03:18 AM
Is Sympathetic Resonance where the harmonics from one note being struck will cause other strings unstruck to also vibrate at their appropriate harmonic tone?

An easy way to find this effect on a real piano: hold down the C key two octaves below middle C, but don't hit it hard enough to cause any tone. Now press the sustain pedal, and do a quick C G C E G C starting at the C below middle C. Keeping the C1 key down, release the sustain pedal.

You should hear very light tones of the C chord still resonating.


My script produce this effect.
in a real piano and pedal up :
in a real piano if you keep c1 key down and you play quickly others c2 e2 f2 g2 c3 g3... and others (without pedal down)
you will hear overtone and in the release of pedal down too

and the rule work up and down ( c4 down and you play c3 - c2 ect)

Robi
04-21-2005, 03:46 AM
Olivier,
compliments for your nice piano. It sounds wonderful.
I have the Galaxy 5.1 and I like the samples very much. (I bought the Galaxy because you told in this forum that Galaxy was the best quality sample).
Have you tried your real harmonic script with Galaxy?
Have you build a patch for it?

Thanks

Robi

Michiel Post
04-21-2005, 04:26 AM
I also would like to share my script with all of you for testing and further feedback, so here it is !
Try it :)

regards
Kornel Mezo
alias maszat

WOW, this is very cool!
The graphic representation of what you hear is very helpful in adjusting the separate overtones. Cool, a must have!
http://www.postpiano.com/support/updates/kontakt/Kornel%20Mezu%20Script.jpg
I think the holy grail of piano sampling is finally in reach.
We now have:
- harmonic sympathetic resonances
- dynamic sustain pedal resonance
- 3 pedal implementation (sustain, soft pedal and sostenuto)
- adjustable velocity scaling
- adjustable tunings (including all non-standard tunings)
- convolution-based placement and overall ambience
- 5.1 surround placement

What else can we add beside IR-based 700 kilograms of wood-and-steel :cool:

maszat
04-21-2005, 04:37 AM
and for some reason those piano makers still don't go bankrupt ... well , then it must be the wood and steel that is missing :)

improved version of my script is on the way, I found stability issues and found a way to reduce polyphony load
the graphic representation does not show the actual velocity, the line lengths represent the overtone distance ( 1st to 5th, 5th is the short line )

Michiel Post
04-21-2005, 04:46 AM
and for some reason those piano makers still don't go bankrupt ... well , then it must be the wood and steel that is missing Let's wait and see what happens when this kind of sampled piano becomes available as a small 19 inch rack. I have Receptor (http://www.museresearch.com/) since a few days and this holds incredible promise. It is plug'n'play (midi in, audio out) and plays a very sweet piano... Artists as U2 are using them on-stage now for my piano sounds. With it's friendly price tag I prefer it to any laptop that runs a non-Linnux OS and is a pain to install in a stage rack. Recpetor is as stable as you can imagine and with it's UniWire it does miracles in the studio too.

xav93
04-21-2005, 04:59 AM
improved version of my script is on the way, I found stability issues and found a way to reduce polyphony load
Have you studied how I managed polyphony in my "9 overtones script"?

Each ID of each note played by script is memorized and replaced by newest if repeated.

But there are many ways to manage polyphony.

maszat
04-21-2005, 05:14 AM
no, I have not seen your script yet
most likely both of us have a similar concept. What I do is : if a stronger overtone comes on the same sting then I let it replace the old one, otherwise I ignore the weak overtone.

maszat
04-21-2005, 05:15 AM
version 1.6 is uploaded
feel free to email me with comments

D2mac26
04-21-2005, 05:27 AM
version 1.6 is uploaded
feel free to email me with comments


The most important is to respect the real rules.
and respect polyphony. if you play several keys you have several overtones.
You will hear the highest but they are all here.

I've tried Xavier overtone script. it work well but some rules are missing.

I'm proud to have launch the idea and that all post their script.

i Will add "2nd" and "6ths" rules and lower octave rules soon.

Regards,

Olivier

D2mac26
04-21-2005, 05:31 AM
Olivier,
compliments for your nice piano. It sounds wonderful.
I have the Galaxy 5.1 and I like the samples very much. (I bought the Galaxy because you told in this forum that Galaxy was the best quality sample).
Have you tried your real harmonic script with Galaxy?
Have you build a patch for it?

Thanks

Robi

No, i don"t.
But you can try it with the Galaxy.
Best service are not interessed by any updates. Still have done several things for the Galaxy. But disapointed by the support

Regards,

Olivier

maszat
04-21-2005, 06:04 AM
v1.7 uploaded
improved display of resonant notes - previously only the last key's effect was visible

xav93
04-21-2005, 07:07 AM
I've tried Xavier overtone script. it work well but some rules are missing.

I know... but it was only a starting point.

xav93
04-21-2005, 07:08 AM
What I do is : if a stronger overtone comes on the same sting then I let it replace the old one, otherwise I ignore the weak overtone.
In fact, Something like "self mask".

Olivier
04-21-2005, 09:14 AM
Piano Sympathetic Resonance Script v1.8

Hi,

i've just tested. But i have to disagree with your resonance.

Pedal up :
on a real piano keep C3 held.
play quickly C4 G4 and others keys.

if C3 is still held, you still hear the resonance of several keys.
If C3 is no more held, no more sound.

Thoses rules are important to play pedal up when several key are still held and you play other keys.
--------------------------------------------------
another example :

1)play c3 down . when no more sound with C3 -> keep C3 down
2) plays C4 fast and keep C3 down you will hear the harmonic samples (C4h)
3) c4h still sound with a natural decay if c3 is still down
4) if c3 is up (no more held) -> c4h is muted





Regards,

Olivier

xav93
04-21-2005, 09:21 AM
Yes, Kornel :
if you play silently C3, then play staccato C4, the overtone 'C4' of C3 will sound as long as C3 is held down.
Same thing when inverted : if you play silently C4, then play staccato C3, C4 will sound as long as C4 is held down.

maszat
04-21-2005, 12:44 PM
Xav and Olivier
thank you for the feedback, I will improve this behaviour.
regards
Kornel

k-nar
04-21-2005, 01:01 PM
We now have:

- dynamic sustain pedal resonance
- 3 pedal implementation (sustain, soft pedal and sostenuto)



did I miss that? :confused:
or do you mean you are currently working on it?

Hans Adamson
04-21-2005, 02:11 PM
Olivier,

Could you explain shortly how the script works?

Where is the sound of the harmonics (overtones) generated? From wav files?

Thanks,
Hans Adamson
Art Vista Productions

maszat
04-21-2005, 02:44 PM
Hans
my script calculates which other strings vibrate sympathetically with the hit keys, and the normal key samples are triggered with appropriate fade-in and attenuation.
regards
Kornel

Hans Adamson
04-21-2005, 02:57 PM
Thanks Kornel,


my script calculates which other strings vibrate sympathetically with the hit keys, and the normal key samples are triggered with appropriate fade-in and attenuation.

So a one-note event actually can become a five-note event?

It will considerably multiply polyphony?

Is this a correct interpretation?

Thanks,
Hans

maszat
04-21-2005, 03:18 PM
It is correct
My implementation allows you to limit the polyphony with the user interface knob.
Only sustained pedal down creates polyphony issues, pedal up creates few resonant tones.
I can imagine an approach that uses prepared samples for common overtone series - with it's pros and cons.

Michiel Post
04-21-2005, 03:25 PM
We now have:
- dynamic sustain pedal resonance
- 3 pedal implementation (sustain, soft pedal and sostenuto)did I miss that? :confused:
or do you mean you are currently working on it?Check the Native Instruments K2 folder, Presets, Scripts; instrument Specific. There is a 3 pedal script there. The dynamic sustain resonance is my idea, with a body resonance impulse. Itīs also in the GigaPulse editions of our pianos.

Olivier
04-21-2005, 03:44 PM
Xav and Olivier
thank you for the feedback, I will improve this behaviour.
regards
Kornel

:)

this behaviour is the most important thing. Still be able to hear the natural resonance decay when the other key is still held.

Regards,

Olivier

maszat
04-21-2005, 03:53 PM
:p
I see , whatever functionality is missing from my implementation is the most important thing :p now the problem is that I am married and If I spend the evening with my script today again then she will not speak to me :p

Ouch that hurts
04-21-2005, 03:57 PM
Let's wait and see what happens when this kind of sampled piano becomes available as a small 19 inch rack. I have Receptor (http://www.museresearch.com/) since a few days and this holds incredible promise. It is plug'n'play (midi in, audio out) and plays a very sweet piano... Artists as U2 are using them on-stage now for my piano sounds. . .

Hehe. Smooth name-dropping Michiel, real smooth :)

k-nar
04-21-2005, 07:09 PM
Check the Native Instruments K2 folder, Presets, Scripts; instrument Specific. There is a 3 pedal script there. The dynamic sustain resonance is my idea, with a body resonance impulse. Itīs also in the GigaPulse editions of our pianos.

thanks! I indeed missed that sorry
naturally as a pianist I was a bit disappointed with the one-line script for the una corda pedal
in real life, this pedal is more a timbre control than a volume control
does someone have an idea for recreating a 'less vibrant' timbre
I have no experience with digital effects n have no idea whether it is possible or not, but I think It could be somehow simulated at least in a more convincing way than the current thing

xav93
04-22-2005, 12:23 AM
in real life, this pedal is more a timbre control than a volume control
does someone have an idea for recreating a 'less vibrant' timbre

yep! The sound is more clear, with more air. The softest nuances are however less loud.

Raindog
04-22-2005, 04:53 AM
Check the Native Instruments K2 folder, Presets, Scripts; instrument Specific. There is a 3 pedal script there. The dynamic sustain resonance is my idea, with a body resonance impulse. Itīs also in the GigaPulse editions of our pianos.

I just ordered the K2 upgrade. Are the scripts you mentioned included or do I have to download them from somewhere?

PS: You didnīt get receptor fro free ;-) But now that you mention it. I was tempted by this machine as well but didnīt know so far that Receptor can handle disc-streaming. I thought it was more for cpu intense non-streaming plugins...... Am I wrong?

Raindog
04-22-2005, 04:55 AM
Xav and Olivier
thank you for the feedback, I will improve this behaviour.
regards
Kornel

Is there any place where one can download your scripts for testing (just about to get K2 :) )?

Olivier
04-22-2005, 05:36 AM
hi,

Kornel the best way is to record a video to show you the resonance between keys pedal up.

i will record me with my real piano.

some resonances add up.

Regards,

Olivier

Olivier
04-22-2005, 06:08 AM
script v3.34 fast already.

it will included a specific self mask - only with volume - without a replay resonance. -> save polyphony

and tonight or tomorrow i will post mpeg4 or wmv video to show
the rules in a real piano

Regards,

Olivier

k-nar
04-22-2005, 10:10 AM
yep! The sound is more clear, with more air. The softest nuances are however less loud.

does some kind of convulsion could do the thing? (the 'more air' makes me think about that)
and yes the pedal subtracts something like 3 decibels in any case which is important for a pianissimo but negligible to the ear in strong nuances

maszat
04-22-2005, 11:21 AM
Olivier
I made an improved version last night . I email it to You and Xav.
Kornel

Olivier
04-22-2005, 11:29 AM
does some kind of convulsion could do the thing? (the 'more air' makes me think about that)
and yes the pedal subtracts something like 3 decibels in any case which is important for a pianissimo but negligible to the ear in strong nuances

when this pedal una corda is up, you play 3 strings in a real piano.
when down -> 2 strings

k-nar
04-22-2005, 12:32 PM
yep!
my point is that when u play on 2 strings instead of 3 it doesn't lower the volume by 1/3 but just 1.75 decibels (if I remember correctly my sound theory! :D )

1.75 db can help when u play ppp but when u play Forte, volume changing of 1.75db is definitely not the point.. (tone color is)

David Ferris
04-22-2005, 01:34 PM
k-nar,

I suspect that that's what will make implementing a soft pedal script so difficult. How does a developer decide how to "color" the una corda notes?

DavidH

Olivier
04-22-2005, 04:19 PM
Hi,

here the video in media player 9 format :

(sorry for the old handycam sony !)

examples with one or several keys still held and others staccato played :

http://www.audiolivepro.com/resonance_pedal_up_between_keys.wmv

Regards,

Olivier

Fogwall
04-22-2005, 05:06 PM
This video is both useful and entertaining. Your hands touch the keys with graceful moves and they manage to speak for themselves. Looking forward to more video demonstrations.

Brian2112
04-22-2005, 05:53 PM
This video is both useful and entertaining. Your hands touch the keys with graceful moves and they manage to speak for themselves. Looking forward to more video demonstrations.

I agree 100%

To be able to communicate something which is a fairly complex concept using only graceful hand movements and gestures is quite amazing.

Olivier, you have such command of your instrument – very professional. Thank you so much for sharing this.:o

...2112:)

David Ferris
04-22-2005, 06:08 PM
Olivier,

Fantastic script!

DavidH

wlahc1
04-23-2005, 01:20 AM
When i run this script i get MAJOR cpu usage and massive crackling. When i try this with one key the effect does work, just like was shown in that video. But the crackling is horrible and i dont know how to get rid of it. I did this in k2.1 in stand alone mode. Any suggestions?

wlahc1
04-23-2005, 01:43 AM
When i run this script i get MAJOR cpu usage and massive crackling. When i try this with one key the effect does work, just like was shown in that video. But the crackling is horrible and i dont know how to get rid of it. I did this in k2.1 in stand alone mode. Any suggestions?

Olivier
04-23-2005, 03:25 AM
When i run this script i get MAJOR cpu usage and massive crackling. When i try this with one key the effect does work, just like was shown in that video. But the crackling is horrible and i dont know how to get rid of it. I did this in k2.1 in stand alone mode. Any suggestions?

try version 3.33 b :

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33856

Fogwall
04-23-2005, 04:38 AM
I did a little comparison between your latest script and Viscount's old IS2 model (available in the MiniGrand module). Shouldn't the resonating strings sound more like IS2? I haven't tested it with a true acoustic grand though, perhaps you could demonstrate the true behaviour?

http://hem.fyristorg.com/pianoworks/comparison_frappiers_kontakt_vs_viscount.mp3