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Raindog
01-05-2006, 03:15 AM
Based on this thread http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41116 by Thomas J I once again got very interested in K2īs scripting.

Could anyone of you knowledgeable people out there could give me an update what kind of scripts for the use with orchestral instruments are currently available (for example: legato scripts or glide scripts) and if they are useable. Or does anyone know if people are working on commercially available scripts for this purpose (i would be happily spending money on a good script)

I would like to enhance my current favourite library (which is KH Emerald orchestra and chamber strings) and I think scripting is the way to go (though Iīm hopeless in programming) with orchestral libraries. If you listen to Thomasī cello example you know what I mean.
Thanks for any help provided
regards
Raindog

ddarwin7
01-05-2006, 12:29 PM
Me too:

I am also looking for more information on orchestral, mostly stings related K2 scripts. Just don't have the time to learn K2 script programming, but I would be more than happy to pay for them.

I was also inspiired by Thomas J's Cello piece and the other symphony piece. I also want to put some life into my string compositions. So far the only scripts I have for stings are the legato, pitchbend, and portamento glide. I am also looking for something that would impart expressiveness to the samples, similar to what synful does and what TJ has accomplished. I've converted most of my sample to kontakt for use with K2. I have some nice libraries (KH Emerald and chamber stings, VSL Solo stings, EW gold, silver, K2 libraries, etc) that I have to breath some life into. Any help or pointers would be appreciated.

Thanks

frankvg
01-05-2006, 05:23 PM
I have some nice libraries (KH Emerald and chamber stings, VSL Solo stings, EW gold, silver, K2 libraries, etc) that I have to breath some life into. Any help or pointers would be appreciated.

Have you visited dear Theo Kruger's site? He has made a few interesting scripts available. The 'ultra TKT' is really an awesome scripts to 'breath some life' into your samples. Big Bob's PCEdemo isn't finished because of the bugs in Kontakt 2 and we will have to wait AT LEAST several months before there will be an update (which of course doesn't garantuee an improvement in the KSP engine). But it is rather promising and fun to play with.

And there is the really very usable 'Sample Offset Legato' provided with the K2 scripts. Be aware: according to the manual you have to disable the looppoints to get it to work so use rather long samples. Sounds fantastic with the automatic sample offset time. I think it rather resembles the legato in Thomas J cello piece!!

cheerio,
Frank

ddarwin7
01-05-2006, 10:50 PM
Have you visited dear Theo Kruger's site? He has made a few interesting scripts available. The 'ultra TKT' is really an awesome scripts to 'breath some life' into your samples. Big Bob's PCEdemo isn't finished because of the bugs in Kontakt 2 and we will have to wait AT LEAST several months before there will be an update (which of course doesn't garantuee an improvement in the KSP engine). But it is rather promising and fun to play with.

And there is the really very usable 'Sample Offset Legato' provided with the K2 scripts. Be aware: according to the manual you have to disable the looppoints to get it to work so use rather long samples. Sounds fantastic with the automatic sample offset time. I think it rather resembles the legato in Thomas J cello piece!!

cheerio,
Frank

Thanks Frank;

Forgot to mention I do have those as well (Theodor and Bob stuff) as I scroll down further on my script list. Maybe I should start exploring the scripts that I already have first. Thanks for the tip. I've never tried chaining the scripts, so far I've only used one at a time. I will start experimenting more with multiple scipts.

Dd

Raindog
01-06-2006, 06:25 AM
Have you visited dear Theo Kruger's site? He has made a few interesting scripts available. The 'ultra TKT' is really an awesome scripts to 'breath some life' into your samples. Big Bob's PCEdemo isn't finished because of the bugs in Kontakt 2 and we will have to wait AT LEAST several months before there will be an update (which of course doesn't garantuee an improvement in the KSP engine). But it is rather promising and fun to play with.

And there is the really very usable 'Sample Offset Legato' provided with the K2 scripts. Be aware: according to the manual you have to disable the looppoints to get it to work so use rather long samples. Sounds fantastic with the automatic sample offset time. I think it rather resembles the legato in Thomas J cello piece!!

cheerio,
Frank

Hi Frank,
does the TKT script need the smaple libraries to be treated in a special manner or does it work with all libraries from the scratch? Do you know which script is currently the most elaborated legato script (I donīt know if any legato script besides the one delivered with K2 is currently available)?
Thanks for your help and sorry if the questions sound stupid but Iīm not very knowledgeable in the script area.
regards
Raindog

frankvg
01-06-2006, 07:12 AM
Thanks Frank;

Forgot to mention I do have those as well (Theodor and Bob stuff) as I scroll down further on my script list. Maybe I should start exploring the scripts that I already have first. Thanks for the tip. I've never tried chaining the scripts, so far I've only used one at a time. I will start experimenting more with multiple scipts.

Dd

Chaining is a very good possibilty although at times the outcome can be a bit erratic. I put the TKT at the end of a chain.
Sometimes there is something wrong in the chain; as I have only just started using the scripts and learning scripting I can't always tell what's wrong.

Have fun!

frankvg
01-06-2006, 07:18 AM
Hi Frank,
does the TKT script need the smaple libraries to be treated in a special manner or does it work with all libraries from the scratch? Do you know which script is currently the most elaborated legato script (I donīt know if any legato script besides the one delivered with K2 is currently available)?
Thanks for your help and sorry if the questions sound stupid but Iīm not very knowledgeable in the script area.
regards
Raindog

As far as I know you can apply the TKT script to any library. Apply the settings according to taste!

Probably Big Bob's PCEDemo is the most elaborate: you can choose between glider, bender and legato. I think the bug only occurs when using the glider mode so you should be able to experiment with the legato mode.

The 'SOL' script ('Sample Offset Legato') provided with Kontakt 2 has an automatic offset function that sounds very good.

Raindog
01-06-2006, 09:25 AM
As far as I know you can apply the TKT script to any library. Apply the settings according to taste!

Probably Big Bob's PCEDemo is the most elaborate: you can choose between glider, bender and legato. I think the bug only occurs when using the glider mode so you should be able to experiment with the legato mode.

The 'SOL' script ('Sample Offset Legato') provided with Kontakt 2 has an automatic offset function that sounds very good.

Thanks very much for your help,
Iīll give it a try this weekend
Regards
Raindog

Big Bob
01-06-2006, 01:29 PM
Hi guys,

Since I noticed the topic of script chaining (cascading) has been mentioned in this thread, I thought I'd chime in. As Frank has already alluded to, cascading scripts can sometimes produce weird results. There are several reasons for this.

1. Most scripts are not written with the thought that they might be used with other scripts.

2. The rules for cascading scripts was not documented by NI, so those of us who write scripts have to resort to experiment to determine what will happen under various conditions. And, since NI may change details in future releases, the rules may change and thus the performance of our scripts may change. It would be wonderful (but very unlikely) if NI were to publish detailed information about such things.

I have started sort of a 'spare-time' project to compile a list of interaction rules that will hopefully allow us to write more 'cascade-friendly' scripts in the future. But the time I can spend on this is very limited so I have no idea when I might have enough put together to post it.

There are a gillion questions that come up when one starts to think about cascading scripts. For example, if script #1 says to fade_out() the current note and script #2 says to fade_in() the current note, what actually will happen? This is only a trivial example of the kind of thing that we need to be concerned about. It may well be that there is no universal way to make a script 'cascade friendly' in that some scripts will always not want to 'play with' certain other scripts, but, I do think that some of the interaction problems can be foreseen and accomodated.

If anyone else is working on this cascading issue and already has some 'hard-won' info, please share it by starting a thread with this topic.

Bob

g.h.
01-06-2006, 07:16 PM
Hi guys,

If anyone else is working on this cascading issue and already has some 'hard-won' info, please share it by starting a thread with this topic.

Bob

Hi Big Bob!

Some information on cascading. Not really an issue, more a feature:
There is according to the documentation no way to pass data from one script to another (other then the standard events). But there is a way to pass the value of a variable from one script to another: You can store the value of a variable in an unused controller and retrieve this value in the other scripts.

gh

Big Bob
01-06-2006, 08:01 PM
There is according to the documentation no way to pass data from one script to another (other then the standard events). But there is a way to pass the value of a variable from one script to another: You can store the value of a variable in an unused controller and retrieve this value in the other scripts.


Good idea gh (at least for small values).

I suppose a similar idea would be to use the play_note() function to create an 'out of range' MIDI note in script #1 and then use ignore_event() in script #2 to keep from propagating it. A value could then be passed as the velocity parameter from script #1 to script #2. However, this idea may have undesireable side effects with the release callback, etc. But, it might be useful in some situations.

Seems like it might be constructive if NI were to add some kind of global variable type that would allow for parameter passing between cascaded scripts. But for now, I just hope the next update fixes the known problems with the KSP.

Bob

Raindog
01-07-2006, 03:01 PM
Hi BigBob,
could you (as a script affinado) explain someone sslow like me, how I can manage with the PCE demo script to make glides ONLY happen when I use a controller (such as the modwheel) and otherwise connect legato notes without gliding from note to note? I love the glide function of the script but I canīt control it.
Does the PCE demo script include a legato algorithm?
Sorry for the dumb questions but m,aybe you can help to enlighten me :)
best regards
Raindog

Big Bob
01-07-2006, 10:06 PM
Hi Raindog,



could you (as a script affinado) explain someone sslow like me, how I can manage with the PCE demo script to make glides ONLY happen when I use a controller (such as the modwheel) and otherwise connect legato notes without gliding from note to note? I love the glide function of the script but I canīt control it.

First let me re-emphasize what it already says in the documentation. The HI (Human Interface) is intended as a simple 'skin' to allow us to exercise the PCE. This HI is not too musician friendly in its present form! That being said, I'll now try to address your questions and see if I can suggest a way to do what you might like to do.


Does the PCE demo script include a legato algorithm?


If you have V102B, there is a simple legato function available. It's very similar to NI's legato script in principle.

Although crude, you can control V102B with a set of MIDI CCs of your choosing. I'll assume that you have the latest User's Guide so I can refer to the Control Panel Functions by number. The first thing you want to do is assign some general purpose MIDI CC to be the 'mode controller' by setting the edit box named 'ModeCC' (and shown and discussed in the User's Guide as item 10) to the value of that controller. For example if you want to use CC#16 set this edit box to 16. Once you have done this, CC#16 will now control the mode as follows: If the CC is set to 0, the PCE will be completely bypassed so that it will have no effect at all. If the CC is set to 127 (max), the PCE will operate in legato mode. If the CC is set to somewhere in the lower half (but not zero), ie 1..63, the PCE will function in Bender Mode and if the CC is set to somewhere in the upper half (but not max), ie 64..126, the PCE will function in Glider Mode. This, by the way, is explained in the User's Guide.

So, when you want to use simple legato playing, first set the mode CC to max. The PCE will then remain in legato mode until the mode CC is changed again. When you want to glide, first set the mode CC to the upper half but not max.

Of course both the legato and the glide modes have adjustable parameters that you need to setup for each mode. The 'common' parameters are where the complication sets in. The parameters for legato are Time (crossfade time) and Offset time. These are discussed as items #13 and #2 in the Guide. In general, you may want different values for these parameters when doing glides than those that you may want for legato mode. You can probably get by with the same setting for Offset (if not, you're in trouble because the Demo skin has no MIDI control of the Offset). I'll assume you can find a common setting for Offset that works for you in both legato and glide modes. But the setting for Time is likely to be quite different for Glide and Legato modes.

What you need to do is this. First assign an available MIDI CC to Time control using the TimeCC edit box (item #4 in the Guide). Then set the PCE for legato mode and tweak the MIDI CC assigned to TimeCC and the Offset knob (while playing legato). When you get a sound you like, note the value for TimeCC. Then, set the PCE for glide mode and tweak TimeCC as desired. By going back and forth between glider and legato modes, try to find a common Offset value (compromise if necessary).

Now, when you want to play legato, set your ModeCC to legato and your TimeCC for the desired crossface time. When you want to glide, set your ModeCC for glide and your TimeCC for the desired effect. If you were planning on doing this in real time as you play this will no doubt be rather cumbersome. However, if you are driving K2 from your sequencer, it shouldn't be too difficult to insert the appropriate CC change events. I know it's not too musician friendly, but, it's only temporary.

I should also mention that I'm working on a new Script for generating what I'm hoping will be more realistic Vibrato. This script will also include a legato mode that embellishes the basic algorithm used in the PCE with some note-transition bending to provide an even more realistic sounding legato. I have no idea when this new script will be finished but when it is, I'll announce it.

Bob

Theodor
01-07-2006, 11:01 PM
Can't wait to see what you are working on master Big Bob! I finished school a couple of weeks ago and i have a lot of free time, so if you need any more beta testers feel free to give me a shout.

The PCE demo is wonderful and the glides seem to be very formant corrected....it's just a shame that the K2 engine is making all those noisy clicks in bender mode. I'm sure in the future it will be the best glide/legato script available.

What are your thoughts on Thomas_J's Cello demo and the script? How come that one is not making noise btw?

frankvg
01-08-2006, 06:08 AM
I should also mention that I'm working on a new Script for generating what I'm hoping will be more realistic Vibrato. This script will also include a legato mode that embellishes the basic algorithm used in the PCE with some note-transition bending to provide an even more realistic sounding legato. I have no idea when this new script will be finished but when it is, I'll announce it.

Bob

Hi Bob, that's great news!! Really interested to know what you are coming up with in the field of vibrato. If you find the time please tell us a bit more about it.

I have only recently begun learning this scripting language (at the moment I am crippling your PCEDemo for 'educational purposes'.... but I am aiming at 'musician-friendly' scripts. I find your efforts in this field very inspiring. My sincere gratitude!!!

best,
Frank

Raindog
01-08-2006, 09:11 AM
Hi Big Bob,
thanks very much for the detailed explanation. I appreciate that very much. I just downloaded the newest version of the PCE demo script and give it a try
Thanks very much again
Raindog

Serge
01-08-2006, 12:28 PM
'out of range' MIDI note
Bob

your script and the TKT are very valuable features. Your idea is great.

Though I only use Kompakt I see, if I remember, the range numbers of the keys used by each instrument in slots. Would it be possible to verify that range before proceeding in your script ? Perhaps K2 store that kind of values that are usable in scripts.

SergeD

Big Bob
01-08-2006, 12:43 PM
Hi Serge,


Though I only use Kompakt I see, if I remember, the range numbers of the keys used by each instrument in slots. Would it be possible to verify that range before proceeding in your script ? Perhaps K2 store that kind of values that are usable in scripts.
I'm not sure I understand the question. If you're asking if K2 makes an instrument's range available to the KSP, the answer is no. If it did there might be some way to automate the range setting. However, once you set the range for a given instrument, you can resave the script with the instrument patch and the range will be recalled the next time you load the instrument.

The 'Key Range' setting in Instrument Options is often set wider than a given instrument's actual usable range. However, if you turn on the K2 keyboard display, the instrument range (based on sample mapping) is visible as 'blue' highlighted keys. Moreover, you can use this K2 keyboard to set the instrument range for the TKT script.

If I didn't answer your question, you'll have to be more specific.

Bob

Big Bob
01-08-2006, 12:47 PM
What are your thoughts on Thomas_J's Cello demo and the script? How come that one is not making noise btw?
Hi Theo,

I don't know anything about it. Maybe he's not using the change_vol() function? Point me to the script (and the demo) and I'll check it out.

Bob

ddarwin7
01-08-2006, 12:49 PM
Many thanks to Frank, Big Bob, and Theodor, for the helpful information. When it comes to K2 scriping, I can't think of a bigger name than "Big Bob", then of course there is also Theodor, fizbin and many others. You've made such a difference in taking sampled sound to a different level, by sharing you ideas and scripts.

Thanks so much

Dd

Up Late
01-08-2006, 02:32 PM
Hi Theo,

I don't anything about it. Maybe he's not using the change_vol() function? Point me to the script (and the demo) and I'll check it out.

Bob

Big Bob -- here are some examples of the Thomas_J legato scripts -- they're excellent, and IMHO, the best I've heard so far. It'd be wonderful if you were to take this on -- thanks!

http://finjaco.home.online.no/1.mp3
http://finjaco.home.online.no/cellolegtest.mp3
http://finjaco.home.online.no/vlnleg.mp3

You can read some of his comments in another thread on this forum entitled "Cello?":

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41116

There's also Alex W's version of the script, and it's very similar, but from what I've gathered it's not the same code (but it served as the inspiration for Thomas-J's version). The results are similar. Here's an example:

www.alxproductions.com/legatohorn.mp3

Neither Thomas_J nor Alex W have made these scripts available to be downloaded/shared -- they posted the demos so we could see what's possible with K2 scripting. This is very exciting stuff.

Big Bob
01-08-2006, 07:44 PM
Hi Up Late,
Big Bob -- here are some examples of the Thomas_J legato scripts -- they're excellent, and IMHO, the best I've heard so far. It'd be wonderful if you were to take this on -- thanks!
Thanks for the links and you're right these are realistic legato examples. But Theo, I'm a little puzzled by your question:
What are your thoughts on Thomas_J's Cello demo and the script? How come that one is not making noise btw?
Are you saying that the legato mode of the PCE is noisy? Or are you saying that Tomas_J's mp3s have noiseless, formant-corrected glides?

As far as I was aware of, the noise problem with the PCE only affected glider and bender mode, not the legato mode. But, since you asked how come Thomas_J's Cello demo is not making noise, either you think his demo has glides (which I didn't hear) or you think the PCE's legato mode is noisy? So could you please clarify the question?



Neither Thomas_J nor Alex W have made these scripts available to be downloaded/shared -- they posted the demos so we could see what's possible with K2 scripting. This is very exciting stuff.
I agree 'Up Late', this is very exciting stuff. I have and will continue to share any script that I write whenever I feel it would be generally useful to the K2 community. Maybe you can prevail upon Thomas_J and/or Alex W to do the same.

Finally, to everyone that has taken the time to post some kind words of appreciation for the scripts I've contributed thus far, Thank You for your thoughfulness.

God Bless

Bob

P.S. For guys that are writing scripts, you may want to check out Nils Liberg's 'free' Windows editor here:
http://www.native-instruments.de/site/forum_us/showthread.php?t=32013

frankvg
01-09-2006, 05:12 AM
either you think his demo has glides (which I didn't hear) or you think the PCE's legato mode is noisy? So could you please clarify the question?


I think most people were so impressed by the quality of the lib that they didn't really listen to the legato. I think most of it can easily be made by the PCEdemo or the 'SOL' script.

However....I DO hear some subtle glides when I listen carefully. Or is it my aural imagination?

Frank

Theodor
01-09-2006, 06:38 AM
Hi Big Bob! I guess you are right, there are not any formant corrected glides there, just good legato. I was listening to it on some laptop speakers and it just sounded so fluid to me, perhaps because the low quality was masking the attacks or something.

I meant that the PCE Bender mode was noisy, and i thought that Thomas_J had found a way to overcome that clicking somehow so i thought i'd mention it. My bad :o

BTW guys, i don't write scripts - Sorry if the script website gave that impression. The Ultra TKT script is based on a machine gun idea i had, but Big Bob did all the coding and the scripting. I guess i should clarify that more on the website :)

Cheers

Raindog
01-09-2006, 07:08 AM
I think most people were so impressed by the quality of the lib that they didn't really listen to the legato. I think most of it can easily be made by the PCEdemo or the 'SOL' script.

However....I DO hear some subtle glides when I listen carefully. Or is it my aural imagination?

Frank

Actually I can hear some subtle glides during the legato playing as well. But maybe we are BOTH mislead.
I really donīt know if itīs the quality of Thomasīsamples or the legato algorithm he uses. Iīll try the new version Of the PCE demo script (thanks again BigBob for pointing me to the update) with īthe Kirk Hunter solo cello to see if I get the same results
regards
Raindog

frankvg
01-09-2006, 07:44 AM
BTW guys, i don't write scripts - Sorry if the script website gave that impression. The Ultra TKT script is based on a machine gun idea i had, but Big Bob did all the coding and the scripting. I guess i should clarify that more on the website :)


Well, the thing is: people working together in sharing ideas and scripting is leading towards amazing results! Who exactly did what is less important than the positive accumulative effects it has. So a big hooray to all!!

cheers,
Frank

Serge
01-09-2006, 09:17 AM
Hi Serge,
However, once you set the range for a given instrument, you can resave the script with the instrument patch and the range will be recalled the next time you load the instrument.

Bob

Sorry Bob, my mistake, the key range is set to default 0-127 as I realized this morning when opening Kompakt.

But you already have the solution as I see :)

SergeD

Big Bob
01-09-2006, 02:14 PM
Actually I can hear some subtle glides during the legato playing as well. But maybe we are BOTH mislead.

Hi Raindog,

I didn't mean to imply that there weren't any glides or bends, but all the ones I heard were small and therefore wouldn't need any elaborate formant-correction scheme. The noise in the PCE glides is due to the formant-correction algorithm that crossfades sample pairs to cover wide intervals. This machinery requires use of the KSP change_vol() function which currently introduces noise. It needn't be that way however, so let's hope NI can fix it.


I really donīt know if itīs the quality of Thomasīsamples or the legato algorithm he uses. Iīll try the new version Of the PCE demo script (thanks again BigBob for pointing me to the update) with īthe Kirk Hunter solo cello to see if I get the same results
The legato function in the PCE is very crude, not much different from the one that came with K2, so I doubt if it will match what Thomas_J is using. But, my new legato script (if I ever get it done) also uses small bends to emulate the sound when an interval transition is played legato. Whether or not this script will sound as good or better, only time will tell.

Bob

Big Bob
01-09-2006, 04:03 PM
Well, the thing is: people working together in sharing ideas and scripting is leading towards amazing results! Who exactly did what is less important than the positive accumulative effects it has. So a big hooray to all!!

cheers,
Frank
I couldn't agree with you more Frank. Nothing like the 'end users' collaborating in the product design phase to end up with a super result. We've got a pretty good team of script writers on board who are willing to share their work and I think good things will be forthcoming soon.

Bob

Big Bob
01-09-2006, 05:04 PM
BTW guys, i don't write scripts - Sorry if the script website gave that impression. The Ultra TKT script is based on a machine gun idea i had, but Big Bob did all the coding and the scripting. I guess i should clarify that more on the website :)


Hey Theo,

You don't have to change or clarify anything. You've already given me more credit than I deserve. And don't minimize your role, after all the TK in TKT stands for Theo Krueger:cool: .

Bob

Craig_L
01-09-2006, 06:53 PM
I didn't mean to imply that there weren't any glides or bends, but all the ones I heard were small and therefore wouldn't need any elaborate formant-correction scheme. The noise in the PCE glides is due to the formant-correction algorithm that crossfades sample pairs to cover wide intervals. This machinery requires use of the KSP change_vol() function which currently introduces noise.

Hi Bob,

If you could simplify your previous script without the KSP change_vol() function and just get those subtle bends, I think everyone would be using it now.

Keep up the great work.

Craig

Big Bob
01-09-2006, 09:16 PM
If you could simplify your previous script without the KSP change_vol() function and just get those subtle bends, I think everyone would be using it now.

Keep up the great work.

CraigHi Craig,
I'm not sure if you're talking about the legato mode or the glide/bend mode. If you're talking about 'simplifying' the glider/bender mode to eliminate the change_vol() function, I'm afraid that's not doable. The only other KSP functions available to do crossfading are the fade_in/fade_out functions which do not offer a sufficiently-repeatable amplitude/time relationship to accomplish an equal-power crossfade (believe me I tried). So I'm afraid that nice, formant-corrected slides will have to wait for NI to fix the noise problem.

If you are talking about the PCE's legato mode, that's another matter. Adding the necessary bending for realistic-sounding note transitions does not require the change_vol() function. As I indicated in some of my prior posts in this thread, I'm working on such a legato script now (in conjunction with a vibrato script). So stay tuned for future attractions.

Bob

Raindog
01-10-2006, 04:14 AM
Hi Craig,
I'm not sure if you're talking about the legato mode or the glide/bend mode. If you're talking about 'simplifying' the glider/bender mode to eliminate the change_vol() function, I'm afraid that's not doable. The only other KSP functions available to do crossfading are the fade_in/fade_out functions which do not offer a sufficiently-repeatable amplitude/time relationship to accomplish an equal-power crossfade (believe me I tried). So I'm afraid that nice, formant-corrected slides will have to wait for NI to fix the noise problem.

If you are talking about the PCE's legato mode, that's another matter. Adding the necessary bending for realistic-sounding note transitions does not require the change_vol() function. As I indicated in some of my prior posts in this thread, I'm working on such a legato script now (in conjunction with a vibrato script). So stay tuned for future attractions.

Bob

Hi Bob,
the fact that youīre working on a new legato script is quite exciting. I mailed Alex W whoīs legato script is the base of Thomasīscript. He told me that he was not quite sure in which form it would be published. It doesnīt seem to be finished yet. So your script may be the most interesting for the community.`
Iīm pretty sure, that slight gliding between adjunctant legato notes may make the script much more realistic as in my opinion (though Iīm a piano player) minor gliding happens when string players play legato notes.
Very curious to work with your upcoming script.
regards and thanks for your contribution to the scriptless musicians
Raindog

Big Bob
01-10-2006, 01:19 PM
Iīm pretty sure, that slight gliding between adjunctant legato notes may make the script much more realistic as in my opinion (though Iīm a piano player) minor gliding happens when string players play legato notes.

Hi Raindog,

I agree about the slight bends that occur in legato playing; and not only for strings but for wind instruments as well (my primary interest is realistic sythesis of wind instruments). But, hopefully, the same general principles will carry over and allow us to use it on strings as well. I plan to release it initially with lots of tweakable parameters so that others can use it with a variety of instruments and then make suggestions as to what will make it sound better and what would make it easier to use.

My ultimate objective (the Good Lord willing) is to combine the functions of the Ultra TKT, the PCE, and the Legato and Vibrato tools into a set of scripts that can be used together as a sort of an encyclopedic Solo Instrument performance tool. It's kind of a lofty ambition but, with the help of the K2 community, maybe we can achieve it. At least we should have fun trying.

Bob

Raindog
01-11-2006, 05:12 AM
Hi BB,
I just wanted to express again my apreciation for the (currently non paid)input you add to the musicians community. Very honorable indeed.
I had an evening with the PCE script and my Kirk Hunter solo cello samples.
I tried to switch between legato mode, glide mode and pitch bend mode using the modwheel. I worked quite well but sometimes a got a 5 sec. heart-attack causing noise (I used earphones) so there might me some things which could be improved :cool:
The legato mode is quite noise, so is the bender mode (besides the wellknown noise). In glide mode I sometimes get missing notes, meaning they just donīt sound when I play them. I thought it could be a cpu problem but Iīm using a rather fast (2X 2.5 GHz) Mac which should have enough headroom. Any ideas why in glide mode there are notes missing when playing a solo line?
Thanks very much
Raindog

Big Bob
01-11-2006, 01:40 PM
I tried to switch between legato mode, glide mode and pitch bend mode using the modwheel. I worked quite well but sometimes a got a 5 sec. heart-attack causing noise (I used earphones) so there might me some things which could be improved :cool:
The legato mode is quite noise, so is the bender mode (besides the wellknown noise). In glide mode I sometimes get missing notes, meaning they just donīt sound when I play them. I thought it could be a cpu problem but Iīm using a rather fast (2X 2.5 GHz) Mac which should have enough headroom. Any ideas why in glide mode there are notes missing when playing a solo line?
Thanks very much
RaindogHi Raindog,
There are currently two known bugs in the KSP that might account for most of what you are describing. Besides the noise generated by the change_vol() function, there is the hung-note problem with the play_note() function. This problem is usually related to very short MIDI notes (often so-called ghost notes) that occur when you accidentally brush an adjacent key or play a rapid keyboard glissando. The KSP does not handle very short notes properly and often leaves hanging notes and other artifacts. So, I'm not too surprised to hear about some of the problems you are experiencing. But, I'm not sure I know what you mean by 'sometimes a got a 5 sec. heart-attack causing noise'.

I'm also rather surprised to hear that you are hearing noise from the legato mode of the PCE since it doesn't use the change_vol() function. I never heard any noise from this mode so I would be glad to look into it if you can concoct a test procedure that will faithfully reproduce the problem. The procedure will have to use the Stand-alone mode and use one of the K2 library sounds in order for me to perform the test.

Lastly, I want to emphasize that the PCE is not finished. When the noise problem surfaced, I would have simply put the script in mothballs until NI fixes this problem. However, many people were posting ideas and suggestions as to how I might go about 'working-around' the problem. "Have you thought about this" or "have you tried that", etc. It got to be a lot of work replying to each idea suggested, so I finally agreed to simply post the 'unfinished' PCE with all my design documentation so that anyone who wanted could try to fix the problem with whatever workaround might occur to them. Unfortunately, a lot of time has passed and NI hasn't fixed anything yet. In the meantime, a new crop of users have 'discovered' the PCE and of course are also rediscovering the problems.

Please don't get me wrong, it is quite possible and even very probable that there are coding bugs in the PCE (remember, it was not ready for release when I posted it). However, until NI has fixed its problems, I don't want to spend a lot of time chasing down bugs because the PCE still won't work right. When NI has done its thing, then I can pick up where I left off. I'm sorry that it doesn't work better because it could be a very useful tool. Hopefully someday it still will be.

Bob

Raindog
01-12-2006, 06:06 AM
Hi BigBob,
I wanted in no way critisise your script as Iīm totally aware that itīs work in progress and I canīt appreciate your effort to create something workable enough.
I was just wondering why there are dropouts when I use the glide mode and wanted to exclude user error (which is in 80% of all problems true :o ).
Regarding the "heart attack-causing noise": It only occurs from time to time when I play and switch between the different modes using the modwheel. Maybe I overstretch my cpu which causes some harsh noise.
BTW: There is NO noise in legato mode, this was a misunderstanding.
Iīm very much looking forward to your next scripts as you are on the right way to go (as I strongly believe).
Thanks again
Raindog

JohnCarter
01-12-2006, 09:54 AM
Hello guys(and girls also)

I'm very very impressed by this new technology to make realistic legato ...

i just listen to the Thomas J. and Alex Demos , and it sounds so real ! Even The Horns , how is it possible ? Is there some "synthetizing" in that thing ? How do these scripts work ? Let's take an example :

I play two notes , C3 for 4 seconds and then a D#3, what does the script do to make a realistic transition between these two notes ?

Big Bob
01-12-2006, 12:05 PM
I play two notes , C3 for 4 seconds and then a D#3, what does the script do to make a realistic transition between these two notes ?

Hi John,

I don't know what the Thomas_J guys are doing (since they haven't shared their script with us) but I can tell you the sort of thing I'm doing for my new legato script. When two notes overlap, the script essentially crossfades the old and new notes, fading out the old note and fading in the new note. The new note is also started late (past the attack portion). Finally, as the old note fades out and the new note fades in, the old note is bent in pitch toward the new note and the new note is bent into the target pitch center. With the right settings for crossfade time and sample offset, together with 'interval-dependent' bends, some pretty convincing legato sounds can be produced.

The simple legato script in the PCE is not much different from NI's library script and it does not include any pitch bending. Nevertheless it can produce some fairly decent legato effects.

Bob

PS Hey guys, is it just me again or has the forum stopped displaying profile pictures?

Big Bob
01-12-2006, 01:48 PM
I was just wondering why there are dropouts when I use the glide mode and wanted to exclude user error (which is in 80% of all problems true :o ).

Hi Raindog,

Yes indeed, often times such things are just 'cockpit trouble'. I don't recall experiencing note dropouts in glide mode. Can you give me a detailed procedure I can follow that will demonstrate this problem? Remember, that in order for me to reproduce the problem, the procedure needs to use K2 in Standalone mode and you need to use a K2 library instrument that I'll have on hand in order for me to run the test.



Regarding the "heart attack-causing noise": It only occurs from time to time when I play and switch between the different modes using the modwheel. Maybe I overstretch my cpu which causes some harsh noise.

Here again, unless you can give me a procedure to reproduce the problem, I don't know what it could be. However, I notice that you've assigned the MOD wheel as the PCE's ModeCC. Are you sure that the instrument your playing doesn't use the MOD wheel for some other purpose? There might be some kind of interaction. I didn't intercept ModeCC messages like I did for the bender but actually that might be a good general idea.

In case you're wondering what I'm rambling about here, I'll amplify a little. In the PCE when the Pitch Wheel is assigned as the bender CC, ie Bend_CC = 128, Pitch Bender messages are intercepted by the PCE when operating in the Bender Mode. Thus, bender messages are not 'let through' to K2. I did this because most Instruments have the bender assigned to control pitch and that would interfere with the PCE and vice versa. Generally, when you assign a CC to control something in the PCE, like the mode selection or Time knob, you should use a CC that you know for sure is not already in use by the instrument. But, sometimes you may not know whether a CC is being used or not (without examining the details of an instrument) so it might be a good idea if the PCE intercepted any CC that was assigned to contro it. I'll make a mental note to think about this when I get back to the PCE.

Bob

frankvg
01-12-2006, 07:00 PM
My ultimate objective (the Good Lord willing) is to combine the functions of the Ultra TKT, the PCE, and the Legato and Vibrato tools into a set of scripts that can be used together as a sort of an encyclopedic Solo Instrument performance tool. It's kind of a lofty ambition but, with the help of the K2 community, maybe we can achieve it. At least we should have fun trying.

Bob

Hi Bob,

I think you are most ambitious with this plan so I hope you get all the support you need. Can you elaborate on your ideas on the vibrato? What always frustrates me is the unability to control vibrato speed in an instrument. Especially for strings that would make it sound so much more realistic. Have you any ideas in that direction?

cheers,
Frank

Big Bob
01-12-2006, 09:46 PM
I think you are most ambitious with this plan so I hope you get all the support you need. Can you elaborate on your ideas on the vibrato? What always frustrates me is the unability to control vibrato speed in an instrument. Especially for strings that would make it sound so much more realistic. Have you any ideas in that direction?

Hi Frank,

First, let me mention that you can control Vibrato Speed in K2 by assigning a MIDI CC to that function. I don't know how familiar you are with K2's modulators and such so I won't elaborate here,

That being said, I'll give you a little idea of what I'm trying to do with my Vibrato Script. First, I'm modulating the pitch using something akin to a trapezoidal wave shape because I think that might come closer to reality than a simple sine wave. Secondly, I'm adding a small, synchronous volume variation (tremolo), because almost all real vibrato contains volume variations as well as pitch variation. Thirdly, I'm varying the speed, width, and depth over time in a complex (but interrelated) manner so as to 'humanize' the sound of the vibrato.

Of these primary modulations, the third is the trickiest part but also the part I'm hoping will lend the most realism. The idea of course is to produce a vibrato that sounds more believable than the usual monotonous LFO with only an intensity control.

Bob

Raindog
01-13-2006, 03:23 AM
Hi Raindog,

Yes indeed, often times such things are just 'cockpit trouble'. I don't recall experiencing note dropouts in glide mode. Can you give me a detailed procedure I can follow that will demonstrate this problem? Remember, that in order for me to reproduce the problem, the procedure needs to use K2 in Standalone mode and you need to use a K2 library instrument that I'll have on hand in order for me to run the test.

Here again, unless you can give me a procedure to reproduce the problem, I don't know what it could be. However, I notice that you've assigned the MOD wheel as the PCE's ModeCC. Are you sure that the instrument your playing doesn't use the MOD wheel for some other purpose? There might be some kind of interaction. I didn't intercept ModeCC messages like I did for the bender but actually that might be a good general idea.

In case you're wondering what I'm rambling about here, I'll amplify a little. In the PCE when the Pitch Wheel is assigned as the bender CC, ie Bend_CC = 128, Pitch Bender messages are intercepted by the PCE when operating in the Bender Mode. Thus, bender messages are not 'let through' to K2. I did this because most Instruments have the bender assigned to control pitch and that would interfere with the PCE and vice versa. Generally, when you assign a CC to control something in the PCE, like the mode selection or Time knob, you should use a CC that you know for sure is not already in use by the instrument. But, sometimes you may not know whether a CC is being used or not (without examining the details of an instrument) so it might be a good idea if the PCE intercepted any CC that was assigned to contro it. I'll make a mental note to think about this when I get back to the PCE.

Bob

As I already mentioned: Probably user error (as ususal). I DID use a patch which uses the modwheel to increase the instrumenīs attack. Maybe THIS is what caused the problems. I will try another patch and keep you informed. Thanks for pointing me in the probably right direction.
Regards
Raindog