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Stagwall
06-11-2006, 05:10 AM
I have recently ordered EWQLSO Gold but since it doesn't include choir or piano I need something else for that. Should I get Silver for that alone? Is it worth it? Or are there any cheaper alternatives for only choir and piano that are just as good as the ones in Silver, or maybe better?

aLfR3dd
06-11-2006, 05:15 AM
I have recently ordered EWQLSO Gold but since it doesn't include choir or piano I need something else for that. Should I get Silver for that alone? Is it worth it? Or are there any cheaper alternatives for only choir and piano that are just as good as the ones in Silver, or maybe better?


ewqlso xp pro has a nice piano....for choirs i think u should buy symphonic choirs.....Voices from the apocalypse or the giovani edition that are great too.

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 05:22 AM
The problem is I don't have the money for EWQLSC, thus I'm looking for a cheap alternative that is cheaper than EWQLSO Silver.
I found Voices Of The Apocalypse and it is slightly more expensive than EWQLSO Silver and it's for Giga, which I don't have. That makes me wonder, how good is the selection of choir included in Silver? Can anyone please post a good mp3 example of choirs straight from EWQLSO Silver?
Does the word building software work with EWQLSO Silver and does it require GigaStudio?

Tomdini
06-11-2006, 05:57 AM
The silver choir is nothing more than your basic 'oohs' and 'ahhs' pads, from what I remember. Maybe a little more than that, but not much. The samples are taken from VOTA. It's nice for some background choral accompaniment, but VOTA gets my vote-a for the cheapest awesome choir package out there. Just don't make any U.S. movie trailers with it, Nick Phoenix won't like that. There's some neat stylized stuff in the lib that doesn't have an equal in any other choir library, like this evil monk patch that is hard to describe but sounds absolutely diabolical and is SO COOL!!

If you're serious about your choral work, I'd say EWQLSC is the undefeated heavyweight champ of the world. Spectrasonics' Symphony of Voices, as yet rather high-priced for its age (still, half of what SC costs...) still holds its own as a beautiful and spectacular choir library.

I am unaware of any other worthy competitors for what you're seeking. VOTA's good. And as far as pianos are concerned, Michiel Post's pianos are like fifty bucks a pop now at his website (postpiano.com or some such), so you can grab VOTA and pick up some exceptionally nice pianos for ridiculous prices while you're at it, without breakin' the bank.

Godspeed in your sample-collecting ventures dear sir,
-Tom

P.S. I converted VOTA to Kontakt format rather painlessly ("rather" being the operative verbage there, there were a number of bumps but I got around them quickly enough), so as long as you have K2, you'll be fine there.

P.P.S. By world-building software, I assume you mean the Worldbuilder that comes with SC. There is a primitive, earlier incarnation of the wordbuilder associated with VOTA. Neither work with Silver. And Silver needs no sampler, it is bundled with NI's Kompakt Player and can be loaded as a VSTi.

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 06:04 AM
Thanks, I listened to demos of VOTA and I like what I hear. Too bad it seems to be only for Giga. :(

EDIT: I was typing my reply at the same time you did. :P Okay, but the problem is I don't have K2 either. So I need some kind of player for the choirs. Seems like Silver is the only way to go? An upgrade to K2 + VOTA + converter + piano library would just be too expensive right now. Would it be worth it? By the way, does Silver have "staccato" samples for the choirs? Again, a quick mp3 example of the Silver choirs would be much helpful.

Pzy-Clone
06-11-2006, 06:42 AM
Hey, try out peter siedlaczeks Extended classical choir.
it can be used to do simple phrases, and has a fuller sound than symphony of voices.
It is not as dark and dramatic as Vota however, but it is in Akai and Gigaformat, and also now in VST, as part of the Complete orchestral collection.
Iv used it for years with good results, and still do , togehter with Vota.

P

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 06:54 AM
I had a look at Peter Siedlaczek's library before but the demos didn't quite speak to me. I'm more of a fan of the dramatic sound of VOTA for instance. However I would appreciate to hear some user demos of Peter Siedlaczek's choir library, if you have the energy to make a quick demo only using this library. :)

Also I'm thinking about the Miroslav Choir Refill for Reason. It sounds nice enough but if I add like $44 I could get EWQLSO Silver that also includes a piano. Therefore I'm interested in hearing what the choirs in Silver can do.

Pzy-Clone
06-11-2006, 07:11 AM
okay ill do a short demo upload later today, i think the possibility of extended classical choirs are overlooked, in this day of 40 gb+ soundlibraries.
i ll put i t like this..

Id rather get vota , but if you cant then get extended classical choirs.
they both sound better, and are more flexible than symphony of voices, wich i think is overrated ,
... but the king is offcourse EWQLsymphonic choirs.

Will Roget
06-11-2006, 07:51 AM
Here's a quick demo I just made up of all the EWQL Silver choir patches, and the piano - http://www.rogetmusic.com/temp/EWQL_Choir_Demo.mp3 (no additional reverb or postpro, etc.)

It'll probably sound just slightly different out of the box, I'm sure I put in some edits (like delay or EWQL's native reverb). But it's nothing you can't do with the native Kompakt rompler. One point of annoyance though is that none of the choir patches respond to CC11 (expression), and so you have to either use global volume (CC7) for sweeps or edit it in Kontakt. Extremely frustrating and pointless, it would've taken all of 3 minutes for them to fix this... maybe they have and I just have an early version, I dunno.

Will Roget
06-11-2006, 07:57 AM
And by the way, Silver comes with piano choir and several organ patches, which sound pretty good I guess... not much of an organ aficionado but it seems to get the job done, lots of timbres and nicely sampled overall.

I'd email their tech support first before buying silver though, something tells me they might just give you the patches (or perhaps for a small fee). The original selling point for EWQL was an upgrade path from silver to gold to platinum, where the full price of the previous version would be applied to the next (buy silver for 300, get gold for 1000-300 = 700, etc). So it'd be silly for them not to let gold users get the silver extras - people upgrading silver to gold would have them, but gold users would have to pay extra. Makes no sense.


(but who knows)

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 08:04 AM
Thank you so much! I don't know what I would do without you guys on this forum. :)

Will: Your demo sounds great, I think it's just what I'm looking for. But does the Silver choir have all the consonants and vowels sampled or is it just ohs, and ahs?

Pzy-Clone: Nice! I'll be right here waiting. :)

amyhughes
06-11-2006, 08:32 AM
does the Silver choir have all the consonants and vowels sampled or is it just ohs, and ahs?

No choir other than EWQLSC is going to give you much in the way of consonants; not even VOTA or SOV.

FWIW, since you have have Gold you qualify for the crossgrade version of K2, which includes a translator.

Amy

karmacomposer
06-11-2006, 08:49 AM
Stagwell,

Silver has male and female oohs, ahhs, ehhs, and eees - that's pretty much it. It is a small variety pack of the much larger VOTA package.

If I were you, I would buy VOTA for choirs amd then, like another user pointed out, go to postpianos.com and buy The Emperor Piano - simply put, a stunning Bosendorfer 290 SE that sounds good in almost all projects. Sampletekk also has the incredible White Piano that is heralded and has incredibley good reviews - double the price of The Emperor, but still a truly good piano.

Now that you have VOTA, buy EXTREME SAMPLE CONVERTER and any rompler synth you like that is supported by Extreme Sample Converter (I use Wusik for that) - the advantage, you can convert it to the format of your choice and use the enveloping, filtering or other synth and mixer parameteres to shape your sound easier. I have Kontakt 2 and I find it to be a PITA - I love it and it is uniquely powerful for those who wish to take the time to learn it's simple javascript-like language, but it's definitely a PITA. However, you cannot beat Kontakt 2 for the piano patches that accompany the piano sample sets - they feel like a real true piano due to Kontakt's really robust scripting capabilities. Of course, Extreme Sample Converter will also convert to Kontakt2 - so really you cannot lose there. I simply enjoy using Wusik because it works well, is easy to learn and mess with - and you get really good results (accepts 24 bit wav files).

IMHO, romplers are much easier, MUCH cheaper (Wusik is $10 for V1 and the upgrade path to V2 is $30 or so) compared to Kontakt 2 - and they get the job done - low latency and works well in all sequencers.

I bought Best Service #13 - a light version of classical choirs - man, did I hate it. Sounded as 8 bit as it was. I know it was made for akai equipment and many years ago when 8 bit was the rage and 16 bit was on the horizon - but it's like expecting a lush choir and getting a Commadore 64 version instead. I threw it away.

There is a company called SampleHeaven that seems to have a choir collection - but it STRANGELY sounds like a combo taken from Symphony of Voices and Peter's Classical and Extended Choirs - on a 4 disk set for gigasampler, as they call it. I have heard it and it sounds good - much much too good for the $10 price tag. The website was almost IMPOSSIBLE to find, but the ebay auctions are out there. I would be weary folks - looks too good to be true and is probably pirated from the above mentioned (although I cannot verify that whatsoever and could be legit - but it just makes no sense to offer a 4 CD gigasampler collection for $10 that also strangely resembles the demos from Symphony of Voices and Classical/Extended Choirs).

I hope I have helped in some small way.

Mike

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 08:50 AM
Hm, but it says on ~~~~~~~~~~~~.com that VOTA has consonants sampled for wordbulding: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~QLVOTAGS

"Cromatically sampled pitched consonants, and pitchless consonants. True word building capability."

karmacomposer
06-11-2006, 08:57 AM
Stagwell,

Holy Crap! I forgot to mention one other FANTASTIC choir collection that is currently 25% off.

www.beladmedia.com (http://www.beladmedia.com) has Giovani - voices of the young, and it is, without a doubt, one of the coolest, most awesome and amazing sounding choir collections I have ever had the pleasure to purchase.

Of course, it has only children's boy and girl choirs, but they sound HAUNTNG and work great in any project. I have used them in quite a few to good effect! It really depends on your projects and the mood you are going for. However, nothing else on earth sounds like it.

Mike

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 09:08 AM
So, karmacomposer, what you are saying is that I should get VOTA and Extreme Sample Converter and convert VOTA and use it with Wusik, and use the piano that comes with K2 after upgrading from Kompakt? It's sounds like a good idea but I think that is still way to expensive. All together it comes close to the price of EWQLSC.

EDIT: The Giovani Edition sounds great! I will consider it. Though it will be too expensive for me, as I live in Sweden. I think Silver will be a good starting point for me, and I will hopefully grow from there. :) Thanks a alot!

Pzy-Clone
06-11-2006, 09:11 AM
here is a rough out of the sampler test of exetended classical choirs.

http://my.opera.com/blackdoordimension/homes/blog/Choir%20test%202.mp3

nothing fancy, just a demo .

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 09:24 AM
Thanks Pzy-Clone! That's some heavy use of different samples. :) I know karmacomposer said that it sounded like 8 bit but I can't honestly hear any difference.

EDIT: I found this reply from Doug Rogers on the ~~~~~~~~~~~~ forum:

"You can get the other Silver instruments if you have Gold or Platinum by sending an email to stefan at eastwestsounds dot com. You need to have Kontakt to play these, they will not play in the Kompakt player.

However, if you ordered GoldPro or PlatinumPro you will get these instruments with the upgrades, and the piano will be the full Steinway version."

So, if the other Silver instruments are free for those who own Gold, then it's definitely much cheaper than anything. :)

Pzy-Clone
06-11-2006, 10:17 AM
8 bit? nonsense, the library is in 16 bit, and does not sound like 8 bit either.

anyway, just a demo of how the choir sounds really, not the best around, but its ok for some stuff.

P.

amyhughes
06-11-2006, 10:38 AM
Hm, but it says on ... that VOTA has consonants sampled for wordbulding...
"Cromatically sampled pitched consonants, and pitchless consonants. True word building capability."

I stand corrected. Actually, I passed up the 30% off sale because I thought VOTA didn't have consonants. D'oh!

Amy

karmacomposer
06-11-2006, 11:39 AM
Just so you understand,

I said I ordered Best Service #13 - not classical choirs or extended.

That seemingly small subset of classical choir is in 8-bit - as it says right in the product packaging.

Mike

Will Roget
06-11-2006, 12:08 PM
Nope, what you hear is all you get - women's ooh, men's aah/ehh crossfade (use modwheel to cross between them), women's aah/ehh crossfade, men's aah staccato, women's aah staccato. Then there's this really pointless ooh-effects patch that uses the same samples as the women's oohs, and does some weird LFO stuff to it (I really doubt anyone's ever used this).

Otherwise it's pretty good stuff, there's a few issues though that no one's mentioned yet:

1) good luck using the Silver choir (or even the full VotA) for quiet passages, it just doesn't work that way. Silver has only one velocity layer, VotA may have more but I doubt it since the demos still never do quiet stuff convincingly (or at all). It's clearly meant to sound big and loud, and is tremendously useful for that... just not terribly flexible. But, some of the oohs and the "angels" choir can suit you for quiet stuff, only problem is...

2) ...the notorious VotA hiss. For some reason there's this buzzing frequency way up top on a lot of the samples, it's painfully obvious unless you do some EQ corrections. Fortunately it's very easy to do in the EWQL Kompakt rompler, and you only need to do it once. But yes, it was in VotA and it's still there in Silver.

These two hassles, by the way, are the main reason why it's somewhat rare to hear a VotA/Silver choir demo with no instrumental accompaniment. On the flipside, they both can sit really well within an arrangement, just like pretty much everything EWQL gives you. So if you like the sound then you won't be disappointed. ;)

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 01:10 PM
Okay, I think I'm fairly aware of what the Silver choirs has to offer now, thanks to you guys and gals. Ohs, ahs, ehs, staccatos, no release trails, not much for quiet compositions, suited for bombastic compositions.
Luckily I am a sucker for that bombastic sound so I don't think I'll mind. :)

I just need something for choirs to blend with EWQLSO Gold, something to start with. VOTA would be too much of a hazzle for me since I don't even have a sampler yet. And if I buy the crossgrade to Kontakt 2 I think I will be able to get the choir, piano and pipe organ from Silver for free. I have e-mailed Stefan about this because I don't know if it (still) works that way.
EWQLSO Silver still seems to be the cheapest way to get some descent choirs and a piano to complement Gold. Well, there is Extended Classical Choir as well, but add Kontakt 2 to that price..

karmacomposer
06-11-2006, 01:12 PM
Will,

One of the coolest reasons to use a rompler like Wusik (after using something like Extreme Sample Converter) is exactly with what you mentioned.

Because of a serious lack of velocity layers, you convert to Wusik and then use the velocity feature to make the new "choir" instrument velocity sensitive. It works GREAT!!! You can do nice quiet passages and then get stomping loud. It has onboard EQ too (Wusik), so you can get rid of some of that high end noise or hiss - whatever it is.

Thought I'd mention that as it is a pretty good work around. Granted, I agree with you that you cannot use any of these choir sets mentioned (EXCEPT Giovani and EWQLSC) a'capella. Just sounds wrong for some reason. I guess it's the noisy samples you mentioned. And, also like you said, they do work very well in the mix of a full production.

Anyone know where I can get JUST a gregorian monk choir sample set?

Mike

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 01:27 PM
Because of a serious lack of velocity layers, you convert to Wusik and then use the velocity feature to make the new "choir" instrument velocity sensitive. It works GREAT!!! You can do nice quiet passages and then get stomping loud. It has onboard EQ too (Wusik), so you can get rid of some of that high end noise or hiss - whatever it is.And that can not be done in Kontakt 2?

karmacomposer
06-11-2006, 01:37 PM
Stagwell,

Not really sure. I have learned Wusik inside and out, but Kontakt still remains a bit of a mystery. I guess I could read the darn manual, but I've been a bit lazy there. Wusik is so darn easy to work with it has made learning Kontakt 2 kinda unnecessary.

I will look at the manual today and see if it does this feature like Wusik does.

Mike

karmacomposer
06-11-2006, 01:39 PM
There are two mentions of velocity in the manual (pg 116 and 195). There is an external module called velocity that seems to be similar in scope and function. I will load up the choirs from EWQL silver in Kontakt 2 and mess with the velocity and see what I can get.

I'll post my results here.

Mike

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 01:48 PM
You are awesome for taking your time to do this!
Although Wusik is much cheaper than Kontakt 2 I would still need to buy the Extreme Converter to convert the Silver choir, piano and pipe organ to Wusik.
And I recon I would have to buy Kontakt sooner or later anyway if I want to keep buying sample libraries.

karmacomposer
06-11-2006, 02:02 PM
Okay,

Wusik V1 is FREE with a back issue of Computer Music and a special version (Wusik CM) is included in every single copy of their magazine under the CM Studio package (it's a freebie vsti synth) since it was introduced. Extreme Sample Converter is 50% off for Wusik owners right now.

I loaded a multichoir preset I made that uses the angel choir set and the women's and men's legato choirs - it makes a nice well rounded sound for my needs.

There IS velocity sensitivity already in this multi and must already come pre-programmed with the EWQLSilver choir instruments. However, it is not very good. If you press very very softly, you hear nothing and when you release, the aftertouch sensitivity activates and you hear a very audible tail to the choir samples, even though you heard NOTHING when playing so softly.

Anything louder than (I guess) pp or ppp is fine (again, the velocity of this is a guess - I have no hard numbers to give you on that) - but playing really softly is horrid on any of the EWQLSilver Choir samples.

In retrospect, I ran Wusik and a choir sample I have from a choir collection I have been exporting from giga to wusik. The velocity sensitivity has been dialed all the way to give me 0 to 127 values for velocity. When I play very very softly, you hear a nice smooth sound and the louder you play, the louder it gets - but it's all very smooth. There is no ungainly aftertouch problems and you can easily edit the ADSR envelope, velocity, eq, etc in real time and quite quickly I may add.

I am POSITIVE that Kontakt2 is better than Wusik in every single way. It is bigger, badder, more emotive, more programmable and simply in another class.

Yet, I can make Wusik sound better in most instances EXCEPT for piano and other large scale samples (like orchestra). For the smaller stuff, Wusik is simply easier and better to work with. This is all my opinion because it is what I work with on a daily basis.

I am also convinced that I really don't like the sound of the EWQLSilver Choir - it's hard to work with UNLESS you are going for that MASSIVE loud sound - then it's fine.

One last note. EWQL has a nasty little habit of making their samples almost 100% proprietary - as in - encrypted. This means you can ONLY use them in the native kompakt or Kontakt software. You cannot export them to any format or convert them in any way - you are literally STUCK with those two choices unless you want to go to the massive trouble of recording a track to audio, mixdown, and then make a sample out of it - pretty much wasting tons of time and energy.

I would rather PAY FOR (I all caps "pay for" because like all of you, I purchase everything legally, so, although I 100% understand the need for protection against software piracy, I believe we, the purchasing few, are the ones being inconvenienced and hurt here) a library that I can convert to what I need.

I remember that I was PISSED OFF when I found this out AFTER I bought EWQLSilver and Storm Drums. I probably will never buy from them again as a result. I have many samplers (Kontakt 2, EMU Proteus, Wusik, etc) and sometimes I like using one sampler for one thing or another for another. For example, I like using Kontakt 2 to play my pianos (The Emperor) or KHSO Emerald - it handles them well and the thousands of instruments were already painstakingly created with care (like the legato live scripts) for Emerald.

However, I also have been able to do incredible things with Wusik too. So I use both of them, sometimes in the same production.

Anyway, I'll stop there. Just wanted to give my reasons and I apologize for being so long winded.

Mike

Stagwall
06-11-2006, 02:50 PM
Don't apologize for being long winded. Your opinions gives me a lot of insight into a world I have not yet entered. I appreciate all the info (like pros and cons) I can gather from experienced people like you before making a final decision.

For now, I think I can settle for that big sounding choir to add a little flavour to the big sounding compositions I will hopefully make with EWQLSO Gold. I've heard the Silver choirs in some compositions and I like what I hear. Also I don't think I will be making much a'capella music. If the need comes up I know EWQLSC is the way to go. Who knows, maybe I could enjoy a group buy in the future. :)

Too bad the choirs in Silver (as with all the EWQL sounds) doesn't convert to anything else. I guess that means you can't convert them to Wusik either. I guess VOTA and that free version of Wusik would be the second best alternative for it's price. Too bad I can't get hold of Computer Music here in Sweden, or can I?
Just looking for a cheap alternative that will give me the option to add choir for that majestic effect. Choir is far from my main priority, I just don't want to be without it, same with the piano.

Infinite5ths
06-20-2006, 08:37 AM
I'm probably too late to help....but I thought that I'd mention this:

Extreme Sample Convertor is on sale for about half price to registered Wusik owners. If you're going to get Wusik & ExSC, get Wusik first, and use your serial # to get the ExSC discount.

I have both. ExSC is great.

Stagwall
06-20-2006, 12:02 PM
You're not too late, I'm still looking over my options for choir and piano. I think Silver would be the cheapest alternative. I wouldn't have to buy ExSC, Wusik and VOTA. Although VOTA sounds great I'm still not excluding the possibility that I might go for EWQLSC in the future if I want to get more serious with the choirs. For now I just want to be able to add majestic choirs to my pieces to add that little extra something.

I'm thinking about the Miroslav Choir Refill for Reason. I started another thread about that but apparently no one around here has used it because no one has anything to say about it. I'm just gonna have to trust the demos, which sound good to me. I still think Silver would be the better alternative for me because I wouldn't have to start up Reason whenever I feel the need for choirs, and then there's the piano...