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FredProgGH
05-23-2006, 10:35 PM
Hey everyone- haven't been around much recently. I have finally had a chance to dig into some material I've been goofing around with for years- I've posted it before in an earlier form. This is part one of a five part piece. I finally have the tools to realize it the way I've heard it in my head for a long time. I thought I'd test your skills in trying to guess what is getting used where (hint- there's a hardware box involved, and it's not ALL samples!! :D) Anyway, hope you like it. There's a few raw spots left to polish and vocals yet to add but this is really close. Any constructive ideas are welcomed!

http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/fredproggh/01%20Do%20Not%20See%20Me,%20Rabbit%20Part%20One.mp 3

EDIT!!

I tweaked the guitar and bass sounds, and tried a more aggressive processed drum sound. It may be too much- see what you think!!

http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/fredproggh/01%20Do%20Not%20See%20Me%20Rabbit%20Part%20One%20r emix.mp3

You guys are pretty much on the money (I think Aaron has onside information) *lol* Here is the list:

Drums: Toontrack DFH Superior!! (Good call on the little toms- it's not the Sonar snare, it's the THE but who cares :D )
Guitar: Bela D. Lyrical Distortion!! (And some real- only the E-bow parts. All the fast stuff is Bela D. And I'm proud to say it's 100% real-time performance- no programming at all)
Bass: Scarbee Fingered J-Bass (Man, I LOVE this lib!! It made doing this possible)
Organ and Fender Rhodes: Nord Electro!! (I think it sounds more real than B4- though B4 is a wonderful product)
Synths: Arturia Minimoog D!! (another fav of mine)

And the ARP string synth is a Roland Vintage Synth module. I think that's it...

thesoundsmith
05-24-2006, 03:01 AM
I'm not even going to venture a guess as to whats what - I'm having too much fn listening! Great stuff, Fred The scope is tremendous, and you fill it very nicely. There are some section transitions that could be a bit more graceful, but the overall file is a winner. Love the bass and drum work as well.

Love to hear more.

Atombo
05-24-2006, 06:50 AM
My guess of the libs:

Drums: DKFHS where it's the same ride and maybe snare as in Drumkit from Hell 1. You're using multiple instances of DKFHS where in one you've tuned the toms higher.

NI B4 for the organs

Bass is Scarbee? Does sound quite real, maybe a real bass?

The synths and wurli I don't know. Guitar is probably real.

Ok that's it. Nice piece btw!
Tom

PeterMcC
05-24-2006, 11:38 AM
Fred,

Yeah man !!,.. sounds like your a Holdsworth fan,. and a bad mofo too!

I love it, post more !!!


PS,.. the true test of great stuff,... I don't care what you're using !!! It sounds F*&^%ckng great !

OK,... I lied,.
Please PM me and tell me what the drums are.
rhodes and B3 too !!!!

Thanks for sharing.

Peter

Aaron Dirk
05-24-2006, 12:47 PM
Hey Fred,

Excellent guitar chops!

I'm such a huge fan of your superior drumming too.

I'm gonna guess the hardware used was made by nord.... oh wait, it's guess the libs:cool:


Great piece, it's a keeper

jeffn1
05-24-2006, 01:10 PM
I don't have a clue about the libraries, but (except for the guitars, which were more Holdsworthesque) it reminded me of Kansas Leftoverture.

jeffn1

MotuHari
05-24-2006, 01:18 PM
Fred,
Great stuff. I thought the bass was Scarbee. I know someone said it in an earlier response, but that was my first guess. The other stuff, well I don't have a clue but sounds great to me. Production as well as the playing is myteefine!

FredProgGH
05-24-2006, 07:31 PM
Thanks guys!! I edited the original post with a remix and all the info. There's 45 more minutes of this stuff i have to finish but I'm fired up :D :D Thanks again for listening!

PeterMcC
05-24-2006, 07:56 PM
say that again,.the drums are DFHs NOT !! C&V.

wow, and THE snare ??? whats that

Peter

FredProgGH
05-24-2006, 08:16 PM
say that again,.the drums are DFHs NOT !! C&V.

wow, and THE snare ??? whats that

Peter

Sorry for any confusion- it's DFHS (not Custom and Vintage) using the original Sonar kit; the THE snare is one of the additional snares (I think it stands for Thomas Hawke Engineering, the spelling is probably all wrong. That's why every just says THE :D)

Haydn
05-24-2006, 09:01 PM
Great stuff, Fred! I thought it was the Sonar kit but I was unsure of the snare. I use the Sonar kit on most of my prog stuff and it works quite well. The high hats and cymbals are great in DFHS.

BTW, I've been really getting into the Inconsolable Secret CD. Really like the orchestral pieces on the 2nd CD.

Jim

FredProgGH
05-24-2006, 09:09 PM
Wow, Hayden- thanks!! I'm honored you have it. There's way more GOS on that cd than we try to publically admit :p :D :D

PeterMcC
05-25-2006, 12:23 AM
Fred,

do you own DFH C&V, I wonder how it might compare with DFHs, especially in this context?

I love the stuff man

Peter

PeterMcC
05-25-2006, 12:30 AM
Fred,.I just reread the post,!!!!!

That is NOT real guitar ! WOW,.. why did you decide to do that instead of real gtr?
I never heard of Bela, did you use it from inside GIGa or something?

incredible man!

PM

alanb
05-25-2006, 12:31 AM
Great stuff. Very enjoyable... buyable, even...

Reminds me that I need to pick up tickets for the next month's Hatfield & the North show...



Guitar: Bela D. Lyrical Distortion!! (And some real- only the E-bow parts. All the fast stuff is Bela D. And I'm proud to say it's 100% real-time performance- no programming at all)

Bass: Scarbee Fingered J-Bass (Man, I LOVE this lib!! It made doing this possible) Were these libraries used "as-is-," "out of the box," or did you have to run either or both of them through any kind of "amp simulator"-type app in order to get them to sound like they do here?

FredProgGH
05-25-2006, 12:40 AM
Fred,

do you own DFH C&V, I wonder how it might compare with DFHs, especially in this context?

I love the stuff man

Peter
I *just* got C&V and I'm looking forward to trying it out on the last section of the album. I just had a hard drive crash that ate the original sequence (the backup was also corrupt) and I have to do it again from scratch. So we'll see- I think it's going to sound excellent. I decided to use the sampled guitar because I can't play like Alan Holdworth and I want to :D :D

Here's the link to Bela's Website:

www.beladmedia.com

FredProgGH
05-25-2006, 12:47 AM
G

Were these libraries used "as-is-," "out of the box," or did you have to run either or both of them through any kind of "amp simulator"-type app in order to get them to sound like they do here?
Thanks Alan! Lyrical Distortion sounds great out of the box- especially the power chords, which I didn't need in this piece. But for the lead stuff I add a little extra distortion- it makes the nice feedback, and some delay and chorus. This uses a multi patch that lets the sus pedal switch between picks and hammer-ons; very useful for Holdsworth style playing because he does a LOT of hammers and pull-offs with no picking. No vibrato in the samples- that's all done with the pitch wheel. The J-bass sounds exactly like a real Jazz bass with shiny new Roto-Sound strings going direct when you load it up (it also has patches for all three pickup positions). I use it like that for pop stuff but for this I ran it through a Sansamp DI box, and also added some chorus and just a touch of room reverb.

PeterMcC
05-25-2006, 12:54 AM
I'm confused Fred,.. how does the Bela allow a more Holdsworth bag? You did it on keys, or gtr synth,.. if gtr synth,.. then couldn't you have done it on real gtr. did you use it in K2 or Giga?
very impressive, I'm curious I must say

best

Peter

FredProgGH
05-25-2006, 01:13 AM
Yeah, it's played on a keyboard- I have the Kontakt version but it's available in Giga as well. I like Giga more as a platform but the K2 version of LD does some really cool stuff.

PeterMcC
05-25-2006, 02:30 AM
phew,... Obviously I'm new here and thought you were a guitar player, like the rest of the world of course !

I gotta say, as a gtr player myself I wouldn't in a million years have believed that wasn't a real guitar,.. it's unreal!!

thanks again for sharing the great music, please post your thoughts on C&V compared to dfhs, I'd be curious to hear.
I'm growwing increasingly fed up with LSD, partly due to GS, but it also lacks simple key features, and is too damn roooomy & ringy ALL the time.

Best-

Peter

jeffn1
05-25-2006, 08:04 AM
I hope I am not ruffling too many feathers here, but I think the guitar is a little weaker than the rest of the instruments. I tend to think that LD needs some additional effects (more overdrive) to pull it off. Bended notes sound somewhat off to me. Just my opinion, for whatever it is worth.

jeffn1

Bela D Media
05-25-2006, 08:59 AM
AWESOME WORK FRED! As expected, of course!

HINT: There is a big announcement coming about LD1 and LD2 on June 1st.

Best,
Francis A. Belardino
CEO/Producer

Bela D Media.com (http://www.beladmedia.com)
216 Pavin Court
Newark DE 19702
Main: 302 292 0668

Aaron Dirk
05-25-2006, 10:33 AM
I hope I am not ruffling too many feathers here, but I think the guitar is a little weaker than the rest of the instruments. I tend to think that LD needs some additional effects (more overdrive) to pull it off. Bended notes sound somewhat off to me. Just my opinion, for whatever it is worth.

jeffn1

Hey jeffn1,

Not at all:), at least from my view. We intentionally backed off the throttle(gain) so the sound wouldn't be limited to "as is", you can add gain but you can't take it away philosophy. The amp was still cranked. I really like how adding just hint of gain really brings out the real amp talk, which I can hear in places in this piece.... something I don't quite hear in direct/amp sims, as nice as they are getting these days. I recall(and was really surprised) Fred used just a hint Kontakt fx in "Outshine the Sun" I don't know if this is the case here. Anyways, I felt it would be better if I left room for you the user to add stuff to the sound, but yet still have a great sound out of the box.

I think the bends sound off to you because Fred is going for more whammy bar instead of bends. The reason I think this is the extreme pitch shifting and dive bombs reminds me of a Steve Vai/Floyd Rose. In this perspective, I think Fred did a great job.... but thats just my opinion.:cool:


Aaron



I gotta say, as a gtr player myself I wouldn't in a million years have believed that wasn't a real guitar,.. it's unreal!!

Peter,
I just gotta say.... THANK YOU for my perma-grin today!!!!:) :D :p


Aaron

alanb
05-25-2006, 11:37 AM
Yeah, it's played on a keyboard- I have the Kontakt version but it's available in Giga as well. I like Giga more as a platform but the K2 version of LD does some really cool stuff. Could you (or, perhaps more appropriately, someone from Bela D) explain the "really cool stuff" in greater detail?

I remember reading that the Prominy guitars also featured some fairly impressive scripting capabilities in K2 but not Giga, although I'm not quite clear on what that entailed...

I'm Giga-bound. What can't I do that my Kontaktian Kounterparts can (kan?) do?

Tomdini
05-25-2006, 04:16 PM
I don't use Lyrical Distortion because I'm broke. That's the only reason.

BUT - I can offer a quick tidbit on Prominy's LPC, my current e-guitar library. In the first K2 edition of LPC, Prominy worked to mimic the realtime hammer-on/pull-off and legato slide programming they had created in the GS version (which was the original version of LPC).

Since then, a "Super Performance" multi for LPC, which utilizes the proprietary scripting language of Kontakt 2, has been released - and it allows for easy and amazing-sounding realtime performance using a variety of playing techniques.

Not sure about the capabilities of GS, but I do know that LPC's Super Performance multi relies upon the power and flexibility of Kontakt 2's scripting language which just can't be ported to other samplers. So that's how K2 bests GS, at least in terms of "unique to K2" features, which forces cool things like the Super Performance multi to most likely remain a K2-only multi.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread praising Mr. Dirk and Bela D's efforts on their awesome e-guitar library. I fully intend to purchase it when I am affluent and prosperous again!

But, to relate it all back to the original question, my guess is there must be some Lyrical Distortion multis which use some K2-only features like scripting in order to facilitate some performance techniques... and this is why the K2 version would be preferable to the GS version in some cases. But I'm not entirely sure.

-Tom

alanb
05-25-2006, 06:54 PM
Hi again,

Since I'm not a K2-er, I'm still not really sure of what's involved in the "scripting" process... do you mean that you can tell K2 to play a series of notes and assign a different articulation to each note (kind of like VSL's "Performance Tool")... or that you can tell K2 to play a series of notes but use a different sample for each note... or ... ???

Thanks for any follows-up,

Alan

Bela D Media
05-25-2006, 08:08 PM
I let Aaron talk tech but I do wish to state the obvious... Aaron has done a masterful job with the Lyrical Distortion series and we, as a company, have made sure the price was obtainable to all. No where can you achieve this level of realism and tone for $149.99. However, if we are being compared to higher priced products - then we have reached our company goal.

Francis A. Belardino
CEO/Producer

(http://www.beladmedia.com)Bela D Media.com
(http://www.beladmedia.com)

FredProgGH
05-25-2006, 08:39 PM
I don't doubt that LPC is a great product- the demos are amazing and I'd like to try it some day. But, like Frank says his product has some definite advantages- One, the rhythm guitar power chords and chugs sound much more modern and crunchy than anything else I've ever heard, two, it plays real time amazingly well which is great for me for stuff like this where I want to play and not program a solo, and three- the price is great EVERY DAY, not just some of the time. Like I said, no dis to Prominy, just props to bela D :D

Aaron Dirk
05-26-2006, 07:50 AM
Hi again,

Since I'm not a K2-er, I'm still not really sure of what's involved in the "scripting" process... do you mean that you can tell K2 to play a series of notes and assign a different articulation to each note (kind of like VSL's "Performance Tool")... or that you can tell K2 to play a series of notes but use a different sample for each note... or ... ???

Thanks for any follows-up,

Alan

Hello Alan,

Simple answer is Yes.

To elaborate more-
Ex: If you over lap a midi note, the script will tell kontakt to play a legato note, In LD's case if that legato note is higher the script will tell Kontakt to play the "Hammer on" articulation. If the legato note is lower, Kontakt will play the "Pull off" articulation. So in a realtime performance you can rip Eddie VanHalen like it was nothing.... The beauty part is it resides within kontakt, not in between your sequencer and sampler. This feature can also be turned on and off with a simple touch of a keyswitch.

This just barely scratches the surface. The next generation of LD scripts are about to be released, this puts all of LD1 and LD2 under control of your finger tips and just uses only one midi track. Very intelligent stuff! We'll post it anytime shortly, check it out:cool:

By no means is Giga useless, just the scripting in Kontakt2 opens up a whole new playing field thats really convenient.

alanb
05-26-2006, 11:27 AM
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the explanation.

Would a Giga user be able to achieve the same or comparable results (albeit much more slowly) by either playing or piano-rolling multiple keyswitches... or by somehowimplementating Giga's iMIDI rules (which I haven't attacked yet)?

Alan

Trace
05-26-2006, 11:39 AM
Great work as always Fred!!:D

jeffn1
05-26-2006, 01:12 PM
I don't doubt that LPC is a great product- the demos are amazing and I'd like to try it some day. But, like Frank says his product has some definite advantages- One, the rhythm guitar power chords and chugs sound much more modern and crunchy than anything else I've ever heard, two, it plays real time amazingly well which is great for me for stuff like this where I want to play and not program a solo, and three- the price is great EVERY DAY, not just some of the time. Like I said, no dis to Prominy, just props to bela D :D

I know its a little dicey to compare and contrasts strengths and weakness of competing libraries, but it is helpful for users. Your point is well taken. LD (and hopefully LD 1 and 2 together with new multis) works very well in real time for interspersing palm mutes and chords. LPC might have the edge with leads and more exotic power chords.

jeffn1

Bela D Media
05-26-2006, 01:20 PM
but it is helpful for users.

jeffn1

Dear Jeff,

According to our user forum records, we have been providing you with the upmost of care. We most certainly will continue to do so. You have access to speak with myslef, Aaron or Alan 24/7 via our forum. I am 100% positive that we can clear up any concerns/questions you may have.

Best,
FB

jeffn1
05-26-2006, 01:35 PM
Dear Jeff,

According to our user forum records, we have been providing you with the upmost of care. We most certainly will continue to do so. You have access to speak with myslef, Aaron or Alan 24/7 via our forum. I am 100% positive that we can clear up any concerns/questions you may have.

Best,
FB

Frank, I know that. The customer care at Bela D Media is top notch. I never suggested otherwise.

But, I have this silly belief that people should be able to discuss the pros and cons of various libraries, etc. freely. I wouldn't worry. It might seem a little scary at first, but, I am confident your sample libraries would do very well in such a "free speech" environment.

jeffn1

Bela D Media
05-26-2006, 01:38 PM
Not worried in the least bit Jeff. My only concern is that you get any questions you have answered! If there is anything we can do to make LD rock harder for you - just ask!

FB

jeffn1
05-26-2006, 02:12 PM
Not worried in the least bit Jeff. My only concern is that you get any questions you have answered! If there is anything we can do to make LD rock harder for you - just ask!

FB

Thanks! I am certainly looking forward to those the new multis. :)

jeffn1

Aaron Dirk
05-26-2006, 06:03 PM
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the explanation.

Would a Giga user be able to achieve the same or comparable results (albeit much more slowly) by either playing or piano-rolling multiple keyswitches... or by somehowimplementating Giga's iMIDI rules (which I haven't attacked yet)?

Alan

Hey Alan,

I had to get with our Giga guy Ash Foster on this, as I'm the Mac guy at Bela D;)


OK, Firstly Fred says "This uses a multi patch that lets the sus pedal switch between picks and hammer-ons; very useful for Holdsworth style playing" - you can do exactly this with the GS versions.

With LD1, a set of .gsi files that mimicked exactly the set of Kontakt multis that Brian2112 had made - guitars hard panned, arts switching in/out with pedal and mod wheel etc. etc. Building GS instrument stacks(gsi files) is easy, and while a set are supplied with LD1, (and with LD2) the real value is the users ability to quickly construct their own on the fly as the situation requires. The switching can be via keyswitch or any CC, and the keyboard can be remapped for splits etc.

AlanB asks: "Would a Giga user be able to achieve the same or comparable results (albeit much more slowly) by either playing or piano-rolling multiple keyswitches..."

Answer: Yes, as per above. As I understand it from Theo, this is how he does his LD work i.e builds a suitable multi with the arts he needs, plays in/sequences the notes, and then drops in the controller data afterwards. This is exactly the same process in GS, no difference.

The huge difference comes in the 'real time performance' aspect. At present, there is no facility for scripting, speed detection, adaptive note selection etc. - i.e. all the stuff you have forthcoming in the K2 scripts. No way round it I'm afraid, short of a GS update adding scripting-type functionality.

alanb
05-26-2006, 08:39 PM
Thanks for the follow-up, Aaron (and Ash).

I wonder whether Giga's iMIDI tools (like the Legato Mode Rule) could be similarly implemented, to cover the same ground, in Giga, as with the scripting in K2... or whether K2 scripts could be converted into iMIDI rules... or whether there'll eventually be some snazzy new Giga-centric version of the Bela D libraries... or...

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

So now, the next big question that I have regarding the Bela D guitar libraries is whether I can coax two specific kinds of sounds out of them.

Specific Sound One:

For the first one, I offer you this officially-sanctioned mp3:

http://www.meshuggah.net/samples/trends12.mp3

This is precisely the scooped-out, palm-muted sound that I'm looking for, as well as the style in which I wish to employ it. It is appropriate to bring up this song ("Ooo Baby Baby" from both Mats/Morgan's "Trends and Other Diseases" and FT's own "Sol Niger Within" albums) here, since the guitarist (Meshuggah's Fredrik Thordendal) has clearly learned a lot from Allan Holdsworth (note the breath-controller shaping the timbre on the mid-song soloing), who has also clearly influenced our own Fred, as demonstrated in the song that began this lively thread.....

...and, after you've listened, just try and tell me that Morgan Aagren isn't the heat on those drums. . . [shakes head in continued amazement] . . . such beautiful "split brain" playing.........


Specific Sound Two:

The second sound in question could be described as the (also palm-muted) rapid-fire rhythm playing in the "soldier boy... made of clay..." sections of Metallica's "Disposable Heroes"... a much more standard "mid-'80s speed metal" kind of sound...

Can these guitar sounds be achieved with any of the Bela D libraries? Preferably without having to also go out and purchase an amp simulator on top of the samples.....

That would be so very :cool:

... and that would make a nice counter-point to the rest of the music I'm working on..... :D

Aaron Dirk
05-26-2006, 10:39 PM
Hey Alan,

Love Meshuggah!
Is that Mat on drums? What happened to Tomas? ....or could it even be dfh? They used it on "War". EDIT: oops, it's Mats/Morgan my bad. Ahhh so thats why Fredrick has a breathe controller in his arsenal. I seen that in his rig list... and scratched my head thinking "what the .... is that for?". Now I want one! :D

I can only partially answer this, as you'll have to wait until June 1 for a special announcement to fully make your judgment call.:p :D

At this time, the answer is yes and no. LD has the low tuning, low drop A to be precise, in fact the lower octave powerchords are dropped tuning. Modern guitar was the direction I was going. Personally, I was really fond of the powerchords, but from users, I hear alot of Leads. I was really glad to hear Fred mention earlier a fondness for the powerchords, I was starting think it was only me:D There is also sus2 chords, which are quite common in drop tuning bands. Also earlier I posted that we backed off the throttle(gain) so the sound wouldn't be limited, you can add gain but you can't remove it philosophy. So no, out of the box LD isn't Meshuggah.... more of a Chevelle. For that you'll need some kind of amp sim. Have you checked out Theo's "Monkey Business" on our site? http://www.beladmedia.com/ld2-demos.htm Theo used Guitar Rig with this. He may not be going for a authentic Meshuggah.... man, first time I heard the beginning(cranked of course), I had nothing to brace myself to.

I had Master of Puppets in my car a few weeks ago. It is and will always be a classic. Once in a blue moon I have a craving for it.

LD can play very fast. Another cool feature is the Random cycle variation for each note, this is for this very reason. With Round Robin cycle you can speed pick the same note and a cycle pattern will quickly develop, not the case with Random cycle. You can "soldier boy, made of clay..." for days on end and never notice it's samples.:cool: Another K2 scripted feature in the next upcoming scripts is an option to select Random or Round Robin cycle. Some people seem to think Round Robin is the only cycle option there is to use:rolleyes: I think they just like saying Round Robin out loud.... I don't know:D


Fred,
I'm sorry! I didn't mean to hijack your thread!

alanb
05-27-2006, 12:50 AM
Aaron (and others):

There's a brief-yet cool clip of Morgan Ågren here: http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Morgan_Agren.html

The first segment is actually him with Fredrik Thordendal, rocking out to a bunch of the riffs from the "Sol Niger Within..." album. It's really stripped-down (i.e., no gorgeous syncopated soloing, since FT is just riffing against Morgan's drumming), but still a fun watch. There used to be a longer version of that segment floating around the 'Net, but it seems that it will be properly released on an official DVD soon -- hotcha!! The second segment in that same clip is the Mats/Morgan band.

I loved the photo, on the same page, of him standing and smiling with Christian Vander...

Well, I'll still be here in June, awaiting the "special announcement"... I do hope that there'll be some Gigatude in LD's future.....

Brian2112
05-27-2006, 01:57 AM
OK Fred this rocks!!
This goes in my "Fred" folder. How cool it is to be a fan of your friend! I think you need to quit that other gig and come down here and write with me.:D
My only complaint is that your MP3's are still tagged as 01.mp3. This messes up my "Fred" folder. For gosh sakes man...tag these things with something else. I don't want to overwrite anything!
I can't stop listening to this tune man!!!

What processing did you use on DFHS? That's the best sound I have heard anyone get out of it!

And thanks for the 7/8 bit. I know you did that just for me!:D

Awesome man! Just Awesome!

...2112:)