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View Full Version : Heretic with too much to chew - BIB, GPO, GB,Rax ++



chmara
10-16-2004, 01:21 AM
So call me a heretic -- but I'm making GPO work with Garageband. Arduous, but worth it....even with a somewhat costly upgrade to G5 and way more ram than a city used to run on. I even upgraded to fall Kompakt (some good ethnic sounds there) and have it running in GB.

Then I decided to cheat -- and Gary caught me!

I installed Band In A Box -- and have been trying to get everything to interface and play nice together. But right now it all seems to have been put together in the spirit of the Lower East Side of NY in the 1950-s -- not talking and sometimes fighting in different languages without understanding each other. For days now I have thought -- first the lawyers, then the programmers.

So Gary has asked me to work with (anyone, anyone) the folks at BIB and with GB to get together a tutorial to make it all sing in harmony in a single language (did the Estonians ever sing in Russian or even Esperanto for that matter??)

Right now it is down to NI stuff (Kompakt) not talking to or through GPO Studio (and I can understand why, as GG has explained) Rax 1.2.1 not patching through to BIB and I may have set up Audio-Midi control wrong with Rax-- and having to pipe everything from everywhere in midi for assembly in either another sequencer or notation program that will coordinate it all doesn't really need a tutorial -- but rather a miracle.

And - the sequencers for Mac that can handle this are usually out of the range of purchase for the consumers (such as myself) who get BIB to help and dream of getting GB to work for more than chicken scratch stuff.

So any information or ideas (as I mount Rosenante -- call for Sancho Panza -- and look for a way to defeat this windmill ) would be appreciated. I hope to simplify the steps needed without the constant shuttling between programs.

COST is a consideration -- as with GG's dream - I want to keep this at an amateur or high hobbyist price and function.

Gregg -- The Heretic -- Chmara

FredProgGH
10-16-2004, 01:26 AM
Heretic.. or prophet!!!

Wooooooooooo..... :D

chmara
10-16-2004, 01:37 AM
Heretic.. or prophet!!!

Wooooooooooo..... :D

Hopefully someday: PROFIT! :D

Garritan
10-16-2004, 01:57 AM
The mishaps and misadventures of Heretic Greg. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

After succeeding in getting GPO to work in GarageBand, Heretic Greg sets out on a noble journey: to slay the BIAB Dragon.

The piles of digital interconnections through Rax looked windmill like ... no, it looked more like the accursed Dragon. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif Heretic Gregg engages the beast only to be knocked over by the sails of the windmill and Sancho tosses in the blanket. And the Windmill seems to have won! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif (BTW: The windmill was always Quixote's biggest fan. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)

Can someone hand Quixotic Heretic Gregg a new lance for his next noble and brave undertaking? ... http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Gary Garritan

PS: Did you contact Mark at BIAB?

Hardy Heern
10-16-2004, 03:18 AM
The mishaps and misadventures of Heretic Greg. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

After succeeding in getting GPO to work in GarageBand, Heretic Greg sets out on a noble journey: to slay the BIAB Dragon.

The piles of digital interconnections through Rax looked windmill like ... no, it looked more like the accursed Dragon. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif Heretic Gregg engages the beast only to be knocked over by the sails of the windmill and Sancho tosses in the blanket. And the Windmill seems to have won! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif (BTW: The windmill was always Quixote's biggest fan. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)

Can someone hand Quixotic Heretic Gregg a new lance for his next noble and brave undertaking? ... http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Gary Garritan

PS: Did you contact Mark at BIAB?I guess Gregg must have had a reason (beyond colour and styling) to buy a Mac in preference to a PC as they're still pricey relative to an equivalent performance PC. Perhaps the reason was a Mac specific application?

Anyhow, my serioius suggestion is for him to put his Mac aside to deal with the specific job he bought it for and to buy a cheap pc base unit adequate for the task of running GPO (and that isn't going to be very expensive). Job done! He can still use his Mac keyboard and monitor using a kvm switch.

Frank
You know it makes sense.

KevinKauai
10-16-2004, 03:18 PM
This is all for Mac? (Talk about fringe cases!)

As some wise folks used to say around computer optimization circles years ago "there's little benefit to optimizing the STOP statement" (as you only do it once).

Get mainstream. I have loved my Macs in the past, but the serious money is happening in the PC area, especially since they finally caught up with Mac technology (after a ten-year-plus lag).

Silly question: Why all of these software folks assume the "top dog" position? With well-know and well-defined interfaces, why should most of them assume "all you need is ME"?

Inquiring minds want to know! KevinKauai :)

bmonroney
10-17-2004, 02:00 PM
I am surprised to see this turned into Mac/PC advocacy issue. The man has already chosen his tools, let's just see if we can get them working. I am not familiar with BIAB, but I am downloading the Mac demo version. PG Music has the slowest ftp server ... I'm having flashbacks to 1993, AOL on a 2400 baud modem.

For starters, you need to enable inter-application MIDI. Open the Audio MIDI Setup application (located at /Applications/Utilities/ ... I suggest you put it on your dock), click on the MIDI pane, then double-click the IAC Driver icon, make sure the "device is online" checkbox is enabled. Now click the Ports pane, and use the "Add Port" button to create at least one more IAC MIDI port....I have 4 in my setup. Then you can click "Apply" and quit Audio MIDI Setup.

Launch RAX, and open the preferences. Select the MIDI pane, and enable IAC Driver IAC Bus 1 and 2 with the checkboxes. Select the audio pane and choose your output device, or just leave it alone if you're using the Mac's built-in audio. Close preferences, and now insert an instance of Kompakt and and instance of GPO in the RAX Instruments pane. Click the "Controls" button on each instrument and for MIDI source, select IAC bus 1 for one instrument and IAC bus 2 for the other - leave MIDI Channel set to "any".

Still waiting for BIAB demo to finish downloading, will post back later after I get it running....

Brian

PS, a very affordable but capable sequencer/audio program/VI host for both Mac and PC is Tracktion, distributed by Mackie. Only $80 last time I checked.

chmara
10-17-2004, 07:25 PM
Thank you Brian. To the other PC affacianados -- who turned the conversation to black vs. white as fast as the president says "tax cut" and his dad said "no new taxes," this is not the place for PC vs. Mac. It is my understanding this is the place to get GPO working in the widest possible range of music creation programs --

I cannot afford the money or time to get into high price programs so I chose (originally) GarageBand and have GPO functioning in it. Set up took longer than I wanted -- but it works and the sound is magnificent compared to even what I was doing about ten years ago with my K-2000, Ensoniq and Akai rigs tied together with tenious midi lines. At that time I bailed from my level of tyring to assemble sound for magic shows to concentrate on other things -- like performing magic on stage. Sold my rig -- but have kept up MAC because my graphics work has remained essential for what I do.

In the (more than) ten years on my macs -- I have not had even one virus. (Last virus I had was from a developewr I was beta testing for 17 years ago. Downloaded at a blazing 14,400) I update CPUs about every three years -- and update programs asap.

SO WHEN I JUMPED back into music with no budget -- I throught GB and Soundtrack would give me some simple assembly (with a royalty free library I have) for my shows. That it does -- but not with the quality of sound I really want.

I purchased GPIO only after discovering that not only was the sound great -- but Gary Garritan has a dream of moving good sound into my level -- affordable.

But the needs of making money with my shows -- has pushed me into a configuration where I must assemble the music quickly --about 45 minutes worth, once a year. Some of it is pretty close to elevator but must contain dramatic hits on times cue for the accent when the chicken (I hate rabbits) is produced, nes paux?

I acquired BIB to help with this -- and can see that GPO -- if interfaced -- can do a lot at my level. So I take Gary's challenge seriously -- write a tutorial for the rest of us (now 7 per cent market share, BTW) who enjoy a solid computer that we need not tinker with at MS's whim.

Brian -- I am going to try and reach BIB via voice again Monday -- and see if they had worked out something. Gary thought they had -- and Rax was their initial response.

BTW - the other challenge I have is also getting NI Kompakt full verson sounds to patch in various places (even real time) properly -- as they are in a bank formula that will not open in some of the configurations I have been fooling with.

And, yes, if I could afford either -- I would pick up Logic 7. Sometimes Apple is slow to get the message -- but when they get it -- the do good.

GC -- Apple enthusiast, democrat, atheistic heritic and consumer suffering from too many tax breaks to the wrong people.

PS - (Also have a bonkers libretto under way for the great American Opera.......anyone out there want to work ala Verdi, Puccini and Meyerbeer after I solve tis probem and write the tutorial.)

UNIX_GURU
10-17-2004, 08:47 PM
Gregg, Garageband is a very capable program and I am glad to see it being used for more than "loop based" music, I have played with it some and I agree that it can be overly complex to setup audio instruments in it as that was not the intended use of GB or the audience that it was targeted for. One suggestion would be to do the GPO part of you work in Overture with GPO studio and record to file then import that audio file into your GB project so that you don't have to deal with GPO within GB.

I tried BIAB when it first came out over ten years ago and have not touched it since so I can't help you there though I think bmonroney is on the right track there.

Logic Pro 7 is great though you do not need Pro to get the job done, I know that Logic Express would do so much more for you than GB it would be $300 well spent.


"Apple enthusiast, democrat, atheistic heritic"

Hehe, us Christian republicans can be Apple enthusiasts too :)

chmara
10-17-2004, 09:29 PM
Maybe heresy would be a good name for a solid program that interfaced with everything???

I have looked at Logic 7 lite ---and felt it is about $100 overpriced for me -- maybe not for the market though.

Brian - again thank you -- everyting now coordimnates on screen -- EXCEPT thre M Audio radium 49. I get USB thruput on everything else except synths and samples called up in Rax. Might you have an idea?

GC - iconoclastic Mac user and Midi gnostic. :confused:

chmara
10-17-2004, 09:35 PM
Maybe heresy would be a good name for a solid program that interfaced with everything???

I have looked at Logic 7 lite ---and felt it is about $100 overpriced for me -- maybe not for the market though.

Brian - again thank you -- everyting now coordimnates on screen -- EXCEPT thre M Audio radium 49. I get USB thruput on everything else except synths and samples called up in Rax. Might you have an idea?

GC - iconoclastic Mac user and Midi gnostic. :confused:

bmonroney
10-17-2004, 10:08 PM
EXCEPT thre M Audio radium 49. I get USB thruput on everything else except synths and samples called up in Rax. Might you have an idea?

OK, is the Radium 49 showing up in Audio MIDI Setup? If you click the Test button, and play a note on the keyboard, does it chime to tell you that MIDI input is working? IF SO...go into Rax, open preferences, MIDI panel, and make sure the Radium is checked as a MIDI input source. I find that the M-Audio USB MIDI drivers sometimes just randomly drop out and I have to remove and reconnect the interface a couple of times to get it working again...

I checked out BIAB for about 15 minutes. Wow, what crude-looking user interface. I thought I had booted into some 1980's Atari program. I got it working to a limited degree with GPO and Kompakt in Rax, but there are big problems. Sustaining notes, wrong octaves, etc. - and of course BIAB knows nothing about GPO's use of mod wheel control for expression. If you must use BIAB, I think you would be better off programming your song with Quicktime sounds, then exporting a standard MIDI file and pulling it into another application that plays nice with GPO and other softsynths.

I found some info on a program called Dent du MIDI which translates Standard MIDI Files into GarageBand format, maybe that would help you?

http://homepage.mac.com/beryrinaldo/ddm/

I'm not sure I understand your issue with Kompakt, perhaps you can clarify.

Brian

bmonroney
10-17-2004, 10:14 PM
oops, just realized that my last advice re: Radium and Rax would only apply if you were trying to trigger Rax directly from keyboard rather than thru another application like BIAB or GB.

chmara
10-19-2004, 04:56 AM
oops, just realized that my last advice re: Radium and Rax would only apply if you were trying to trigger Rax directly from keyboard rather than thru another application like BIAB or GB.


It's 2:50 a.m. -- have tried Rax, Tracktion switching apps, reloading plug ins, and find that --- so far -- the best solution is to use a midi transfer to an at least adequate sequencer program, assign instruments one by one and tweek.

The folks at BIB said they will send me some of their tests and ideas in the next couple of days.

Maybe I am pre-mature in thinking this can all be done reasonably easily....but I am looking at beta in a couple of "pipeline" programs.

Haver also been having trouble getting Tracktion to behave as the tutorial model -- and cannot get it to recognize Kompakt.....so I must be doing something wrong and need some sleep to think on it......

Tommorrowwww -- tommmorrrow ==== tooooommmmmoooorrrroooow.

GC