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falcon1
06-25-2004, 12:04 PM
Hi all,

as I wait for the GPO to arrive, I was wondering if I need to have seperate track in Sibelius if (for example) I want to switch from arco to pizz. - Or is it possible to have the technique marking in Sibelius to control GPO?

Thanks in advance!

Jeff Hurchalla
06-25-2004, 12:50 PM
In some cases (such as the example you gave) you don't need to use different tracks. To explain: some of the available instruments in GPO are KeySwitched instruments, which means that you can change the playing articulation by playing certain notes which are out of the instruments' range. These notes are called KeySwitch notes, since you press a key to switch the articulation. Now for example if you needed to change from tremolo to pizz, GPO has a Bass KS instrument that you can use that will allow you to keep the bass on a single track, when switching between a limited number of articulations which includes pizz, trills, tremolo, etc. However it is quite common that you will want to change articulations for an instrument but you either aren't using a KS instrument in the first place, or the keyswitch articulations don't allow you to select the articulation you want. In this case, you need to use two tracks in Sibelius for the different articulations.
Hope this helps

Jeff

TedRockley
06-25-2004, 01:05 PM
In some cases (such as the example you gave) you don't need to use different tracks. To explain: some of the available instruments in GPO are KeySwitched instruments, which means that you can change the playing articulation by playing certain notes which are out of the instruments' range. These notes are called KeySwitch notes, since you press a key to switch the articulation. Now in the case of changing from arco to pizz, GPO has a Bass KS instrument that you can use that will allow you to keep the bass on a single track, when switching between a limited number of articulations which includes bass, arco, tremolo, etc. However it is quite common that you will want to change articulations for an instrument but you either aren't using a KS instrument in the first place, or the keyswitch articulations don't allow you to do everything you desire. In this case, you need to use two tracks in Sibelius for the different articulations.
Hope this helps

Jeff
The old Channel change question again eh Jeff?
Its getting serious don't you think.
I think it quite reasonable to expect to be able to switch between the most common string articulations arco and pizz when using Sibelius, without having to use separate staves or any other complication than sending a midi message. Whether this is a shortcoming of Sib or not I still haven't had clearly explained. Overture can do it, and its a matter of automatically having the sequencer switch sending to an appropriate channel. (the slots on the Kompakt player are different channels, not different banks or different programs. If there is a midi message that Sib can send that would effect this, please let us all know.
Also, lets be clear, in GPO, for violins, violas and cellos there is not a keyswitch instrument capable of switching between arco and pizz. The keyswitch is tremolo, semitone trills, tone trills and pizz. Very nice but a pain to sequence if you can't access them easily.
On another subject, what keyboards do users recommend as being the most easy and expressive to set up and use?

loogoo
06-25-2004, 02:00 PM
That's right, Sibelius cannot switch channels on a track. I don't know how Overture does it but Sibelius has never claimed to be a sequencing program, so I guess it has not been a priority with them. I've heard talk that the next upgrade of GPO will include sus+short samples as part of the KS combo package for all strings - but that hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, what I do is create an ossia staff underneath sections of my score that I want to play articulations, set the KS combo sample for that staff in the mixer and turn off playback of the notes in the regular staff for that section. Oh yes, you have to include the keyswitch note on your ossia staff. I have found that it works more reliably if you place the keyswitch note just before your "playing" notes. It's not elegant, but at least you can remove the ossia staves for printout. Here's hoping the GPO upgrade happens soon...

Jeff Turner
06-25-2004, 02:43 PM
I found a way to make it work in Finale. In the GPO player I loaded the lush violin patch in the first slot on midi channel 1. In the 2nd slot I loaded a pizz. patch in midi channel 2. In Finale the staff is set to play thru channel 1. In the middle of the piece I added a text expression, "pizz". I defined the midi message of this "pizz." expression as a midi channel change to channel 2. It worked. Hopefully there is something similar in Sibelius.

Otherwise make a separate score for playback and put each articulation on a separate channel/staff.

Jeff

Jeff Hurchalla
06-25-2004, 09:16 PM
Great tip with Finale Jeff. I had come to think Finale had the same limitation as Sibelius but upon checking it looks like Finale can handle channel changes mid-staff as you describe. Very cool.
Good catch on the Bass example Ted. I was typing faster than thinking, and corrected that.

I believe Sibelius doesn't have any means to allow you to change channel in mid-staff (though I will be pleased to be proven wrong). So except for the KS case, this generally means you'd need to work with two staves for articulation changes. Overture is well set up to do articulation changes since Don tailored Overture for the GPO release - this includes added support for channel changing in mid staff for GPO articulations. Hopefully Sibelius will add a feature to allow channel changes in their next release.

falcon1
06-26-2004, 10:51 AM
Thanks for your answers!

When GPO arrives I will surely need to ask some questions, so it's great to have such good community where I can seek assistance.

Thanks!

monsterbox
06-26-2004, 01:52 PM
hi,
no, channel switching doesnīt work at all.

The best solution is to do the "extra staff" stuff as some of you mentioned.

Iīve just asked at the Sibelius Help Center here (http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=189559&groupid=3) to be really, really sure.

Ah, itīs a really great software...but for about 500 to 700 bucks it should work ;)

TedRockley
06-28-2004, 12:50 PM
hi,
no, channel switching doesnīt work at all.

The best solution is to do the "extra staff" stuff as some of you mentioned.

Iīve just asked at the Sibelius Help Center here (http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=189559&groupid=3) to be really, really sure.

Ah, itīs a really great software...but for about 500 to 700 bucks it should work ;)

Yes, you would think so. Well at least the fog is lifting a bit and we can start to be pretty sure that IT WON'T WORK. Ah well.
The weird thing is midi messages that change channel are referred to in Sib 2 help file, but they say only to the effect that, 'you would hardly ever need to do that.' but don't tell you how to do it. Sib 3's help file is much more sparse and doesn't mention it at all.

So that begs the question, are the KS instruments in GPO using unique samples or are they constructed from samples used elsewhere in GPO?
If they are 'a particular organisation' of existing samples would it be possible to have a arco/pizz keyswitch in the next GPO? This combo must be surely the most commonly called upon and wouldn't require any more samples.
And progressing the idea further, is it or would it ever be possible to construct our own KS groups from the supplied sets?
Or add additional articulations to an existing KS?
Is this possible using the full version of Kontakt?

dewdman42
06-29-2004, 08:50 PM
Might he also use MapleTools to keyswitch to another channel?

Jeff Hurchalla
06-30-2004, 09:56 PM
Although Maple could easily do the keyswitching, in this case it wouldn't work. Maple always uses its own outputs - Maple thus wouldn't be able to access the 'GPO Studio' outputs that it would need to send midi over to GPO Studio.

dewdman42
07-01-2004, 01:06 PM
sccrrreeeeechhhhh. (that's the sound of a record needle grinding to a halt)... Are you saying that MapleTools does not work with GPO Studio in general? Is that because they share the same virtual midi port mechanism or something like that?

I was hoping to put MapleTools inline between my midi keyboard and my sequencer... in other words, send midi keyboard to maple, maple outs connected to inputs on sequencer.

And in another mode of operation put inline between sequencer and GPO Studio...assign maple inputs as the outputs in a sequencer....then assign the outputs of Maple as the inputs to GPO studio.

are you saying either of those modes of operation won't work with GPO studio?