View Full Version : idea to control the bow in the strings

06-24-2004, 04:09 AM
yesterday i was thinking at how the legato system works and I got an idea.
Why don't we use the moodwheel to emulate the bow?
We could use the moodwheel as the bow so moving up the moodwheel we are moving up the bow and if we moe it down we can move it down.
If we are in the lower part of the moodwheel we are in the lower part of the bow and so on.
If we want to mke two notes on the same bow we just move (up or down) the moodwheel otherwise if we want to change the bow we could or move up and down the wheel or just not move it (in this wa for fast passages we don't destroy the wheel).
If we want to make a staccato in the same bow we simply move for example the bow up the first time, we stop, and again we move up.
In this way instead of having a lot of patches for all the different bow movements we can move from a patch to the other thru programming and in this way we are also preatty much doing the same things a violinist is doing.
The volume could be controlled thru a volume pedal.
For the vibrato, I don't rememeber exactly how it works the midi standard, but maybe we can do a vibrato on a note just moving our finger on the key where we are changing the preassure (again emulating quite well what a violinist does).

It's just an idea but it seems to me it was nice

06-24-2004, 04:54 AM
A nice idea indeed. I doubt it will be more than tough to realize. But I don't have a clue how to program so I frankly can't tell if something like that is possible.
Just wanted to let you know that I really like the idea :-)


06-24-2004, 05:21 AM
I know it should be difficult to programm it but you should have an incredible controll and it should become "easy" to play the string while now everytime you want to change the type of bow movement you have to change the patch.
thanks again

06-24-2004, 10:57 PM

This is something we considered when doing GOS. When we observed how violinists played, it was usually in an "down" "up" "down" "up" fashion. So we made this alternating bowing automatic. Of course there are exceptions - such as marcato/sfz so Jeff added a feature in MaestroTools to keyswitch up, down or alternating bows.

What would really make the mod wheel bowing even more viable is if there was a control that adds bow pressure. How hard the violinists exerts pressure on the bow can be more important than direction of the bow. Maybe a mod wheel with a z-axis that responds to downward pressure as well would make this more attractive.

Good thinking. We were discussing alternate controllers on the GPO chat last week. Maybe this is something we can discuss tomorrow.

What do others think about what crr proposes?

Gary Garritan

06-25-2004, 02:48 AM
as a violinist (not very good but we can say quite well) I think that there is much more than just move up and down the bow. Using the moodwheel as the bow, as i said, the program can know where we are and accordingly change the patch: it's really different the sound of a violin if we are in the lower or upper part of the bow most of all if you are playing a fast passage. The sound changes also if you play a note just in a movement of the bow or putting other notes in the same bow. All these aspects could be capture by programming and using the moodwheel as "your bow".
This should emulate better the real instrument instead of a keyswitch and you could add enelops and a lot of programming making the sound more natural.
Clearly the preassure is important but we still have the controll on the right hand so the preassure can be controlled with that (or as is said, with a volume pedal).
It's clearly not simple but i think we could have more controll in this way instead of using a ketswitch.
It can be that all this things are important for me, as a violin player, but not to someone who don't play any string instrument.

Another thing i noticed: did you ever consider to sample the string notes in all the different hand positions? For most of the extension range of a string there are two or three positions where you can get the same note but with a different timbre and duration.

just a couple of ideas,
thanks for your reply

Jeannot Welter
06-25-2004, 08:45 AM

Gary recorded sul altra corda samples for GOS. Expect extensive use of these, plus other timbral variation techniques in the up coming GOS2.


06-25-2004, 01:49 PM
thanks jeannot i was just wondering about that. May be i'm thinking too much :)

06-30-2004, 11:10 PM
The volume could be controlled thru a volume pedal.
For the vibrato, I don't rememeber exactly how it works the midi standard, but maybe we can do a vibrato on a note just moving our finger on the key where we are changing the preassure (again emulating quite well what a violinist does).

It's just an idea but it seems to me it was nice[/QUOTE]

This stuff is starting to keep me awake nights . It's all so interesting.

I don't know if you have been reading the threads in the GPO area but some very similar things are being discussed. Actually far more than discussed.

Markleford the remarkable has being creating plugins , the latest of which adds aftertouch taking over from the modwheel to give a hands on feel to a volume/expression swell.

I am looking for something even more advanced which does all that but after the initial velocity or bow hits the string.

You have me thinking again ! Your idea of the aftertouch for vibrato and a volume pedal for the swell also has great merit. As does the idea of the modwheel being the bow itself.

What I have been saying a lot is that what it seems we're after here is FEEL.
For you that could be the mw bowing plus the vibrato aftertouch.
For me it might be the great velocity control of p-f and followed by the aftertouch to create a sustain which swells and down again.

It is very very possible to have perhaps 2 or even 3 plugins that will cover the bases.

You know , likely the best thing is for a certain level of discussion and dissemination of ideas to take place , then a consensus , and finally a solution may happen.
Of course sometimes Markleford creates a plugin while we are barely still discussing this stuff. I just witnessed that a week ago !


06-30-2004, 11:15 PM
hmmm it never stops. Just thinking about what Gary mentions about a control regarding bow pressure . THAT seems to hit a distinct nail on the head. If there's anything I would ask for on top of the velocity/mw/aftertouch cascade it would be that for sure.

For me it would be the aftertouch after the modwheel at the same time increasing volume AND bow pressure . Funny because the bow pressure automatically generally increases the volume so it's very natural.

07-01-2004, 02:29 AM
hi Jak,
i was thinking at my idea in these days and i don't know, it seems to me a good idea to emulate better a string player but maybe not so efficient for people who don't know how to play a violin.
As i said, as a violinist, i feel i loose the controll of "the bow" when i look at an auto-alternator but i can be the best solution for people who don't want to "become a violinist" but just get a good sound.
I don't know. Maybe it can be a good idea for the solo library where it's important that the player "becomes" a violinist.
As you said this is just an idea.

07-01-2004, 05:29 PM
Wow! Great Idea. Now you have me thinking of the ribbon controller on my EX5! The neat thing about the ribbon controller is I think you can lift your finger and start at any position. It has two settings HOLD and RESET so you could set it not to snap back. Sorry if I'm way off topic. Cool thread.