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DarwinKopp
05-29-2004, 05:08 PM
Thought I'd stress test the ol' PC:

Richard Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra (intro) (www.tcinternet.net/users/minnesoft/strauss-zarathustra-intro.mp3)

DPDAN
05-30-2004, 02:08 PM
pretty cool Darwin!

GigaLove
05-30-2004, 02:15 PM
Hey...that sounds quite impressive! Only the reverb irritates me. Kind of too distant. Which rev/settings did you use?

Hardy Heern
05-30-2004, 02:40 PM
Darwin, What a fabulous, fabulous composition, what a fabulous mockup.....Goose pimples all the way; especially between 00:00 and 01:50! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif A lot of real orchestras would be proud of that....let\'s be honest!!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif What else could you do for two minutes that would give you so much pleasure?? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

This really is hard to fault.....tweaked to perfection http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

There\'s no better use for a church organ........

Thanks for the listen.......always was a great 2001 Space Odyssey fan........seen it several times (No and I didn\'t use LSD; ...sadly?? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif)......Now how about The Blue Danube just to compete the experience?

I don\'t want to put Gary on the spot but I can guess where this will soon be linked!

Respect

HAL

L0W
05-30-2004, 03:08 PM
Yes this is really fantastic. A re-master with a different reverb is all that is needed I would say! Would love to know the GPO instruments used (if it was all GPO).

DPDAN
05-30-2004, 04:04 PM
I agree about the reverb, the reverb time needs to be longer, and I thought the cymbals were too soft, let em\' crash http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Awesome though!!!!!!!!!!!

DarwinKopp
05-30-2004, 05:14 PM
Hi everyone, thank you for your feedback. Again, I learned a lot by doing this mock up.

I only have the Ambience reverb, so sorry if it doesn’t cut it. The reverb delay was given a lot of thought. Most of the recordings I’d ever heard of this work evoked the sense of a very large space (cavernous actually), so I went with about a four-second delay, fully expecting some would find this too long (or maybe even too short!). This piece can only be performed in the presence of a rather largish pipe organ, and these spaces usually have a pretty good delay.

This is 100% GPO using Overture 3.6.0 and zero post production. Strauss scored this with “winds in threes”, plus an augmented brass section, adding two more horns, an extra trumpet, and an extra tuba. In all, this excerpt has 14 winds with 15 brass. I fudged some of the brass by using overlays as separate instruments, mostly because those instruments are playing quite loudly anyway.

8 Kontakt instances were used as follows:

Piccolo NV Solo
Flute Ens1
Flute Ens2
Flute Ens3
Oboe 1 Modern Ens1
Oboe 1 Modern Ens2
Oboe 1 Modern Ens3
Eb Clarinet Solo

Bb Clarinet Ens 1
Bb Clarinet Ens 2
Bassoon 1 Ens1
Bassoon 1 Ens2
Bassoon 1 Ens3
Contrabassoon 1 Solo

FHorn Overlay FF
FHorn Overlay F
French Horn 1 Ens1
French Horn 1 Ens2
French Horn 2 Ens1
French Horn 2 Ens2
Tuba Overlay
Tuba 1 Solo

Tpt 1 Ens1
Tpt 1 Ens2
Tpt 2 Ens1
Tpt 2 Ens2
Tenor TBone Ens1
Tenor TBone Ens2
Tenor TBone Ens3

Timpani
Bass Drum
Cymbals
Percussion Toys (Triangle)

Baroque Plen Reed Pedal
Full Organ

Vlns 1 Sus+Short
Vlns 1 Tremolo
Vlns 2 Sus+Short
Vlns 2 Tremolo
Violas Sus+Short
Violas Tremolo

Cellos Sus+Short
Cellos Tremolo
Basses Sus+Short
Basses Tremolo

There was only one technical problem that I recall: I couldn’t get the bass drum fundamental set to where I wanted it (lower). Every time Overture triggered the bass drum for the first time, the fundamental reset itself to its default. I’m not sure if this is an Overture or GPO problem.

Dan, I know what you mean about the cymbals, as I felt the same way. But Strauss scored the first three cymbal notes p and the next one mf. Only the final cymbal crash is ff. I think in actual performance, a lot of percussionists must get carried away. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DPDAN
05-30-2004, 05:33 PM
I\"ll bet you\'re right Darwin, I am only referring to what I have heard in previous recordings.... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The length of the reverberation is the decay, while the delay is the amount of time that passes before the reverb is heard, just fyi http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DarwinKopp
05-30-2004, 07:13 PM
Yes, \"decay\" was intended, not \"delay\". http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Someone must have switched my c and l keys around!

Thanks, Dan.

Garritan
05-30-2004, 07:17 PM
Breathtaking! One of the most recognizable pieces of music ever used in a movie.
And one of the best mockups of a classical work using GPO. Strauss would be proud.

I didn\'t mind the reverb and I think that matching the orchestra with a pipe organ is the right approach. If you listen to classical recordings there usually is an overwhelming sense of space. Perhaps an impulse (sampled reverb) would help. If you have a convolver (like SIR which is free) I could send you a custom impulse to try.

You did this in Overture? Amazing. Would you consider sharing the Overture file?
And of course, I would be honored it I could post this on the GPO demo page.

Thanks for posting this.

Gary Garritan

\"I may not be a first-rate composer, but I\'m a first-class second-rate composer\"
-Richard Strauss

DarwinKopp
05-30-2004, 08:11 PM
Hi Gary,

Thanks for taking the time to listen. I specifically wanted to see if I could get GPO to replicate a large ensemble and simultaneously see if my system could handle it in real-time. Predictably, the key to an authentic \"big sound\" is to score for a huge orchestra and all the work that entails.

I didn\'t mind the Ambience reverb either. After all, a free reverb is better than none at all! It\'s nice to get some idea what the music will sound like in a \"live\" space, and for my purposes it\'s not really essential how realistic that live space sounds. When I think back on how we used to suffer in the days of spring reverbs, just about anything is a vast improvement.

Having never looked into it, what is needed to run SIR? Can it be integrated into GPO to replace Ambience? Or can it run as a stand alone and reverb stereo input from a .wav back to a .wav? I\'m willing to see what I can do to improve the reverb quality, short of launching Cubasis. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif On the other hand, this is the reverb that comes with GPO Studio, so in demo terms, this is it.

I\'ll be glad post the Overture file later this evening. I would caution everyone though that I laid this out on custom, score-sized paper (10x13), so if one wanted to print this, it won\'t print out on letter-sized paper without some sort of reduction.

Yes, you certainly may post this to the demo page!

DarwinKopp
05-30-2004, 09:30 PM
Here\'s the Overture file:

zarathustra.ove (\"http://www.tcinternet.net/users/minnesoft/zarathustra.ove\")

You\'ll want to right click and select \"Save Target As...\"

Have fun. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

galvedro
05-31-2004, 02:38 AM
Wow, your interpretation is impressive. You reached a really big sound for the orchestra, something some people where in doubt GPO could ever do.

What I find a bit annoying is that I\'m missing a lot of high freq. content. Except the last chord, the rest of the cue souds to me as it where played behind a closed door or something like this. I think this may be caused by wet/dry setting in the Ambience verb. Anyway, I have only listened to this one with my headphones yesterday night, I will try it through the monitors this evening.

Good job!

Anton

Nicole
05-31-2004, 05:45 AM
Strange I tried to reply to this twice:)

Very nice indeed! Sounds very big.

I have a question. In regards to the notation program, how much control do you have over how the notes actually sound? I didnt install the bundled notation program being that I have Finale. I have used notation programs for a long while but without any sound. Just curious what the difference is nowdays in control over the sound. Does a written whole note ring its exact duration no matter what??? Stuff like that:)

Once again nice work.

PaulR
05-31-2004, 06:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Thought I\'d stress test the ol\' PC:

[/ QUOTE ]


You tested it alright. Thats stormin! The only part where maybe the reverb could be \'improved\' is on the Timps, but thats just my taste. I admit, I didn\'t think GPO could do this, so now I\'ve been made to eat s**t, which serves me right. Very good indeed.

DarwinKopp
05-31-2004, 03:14 PM
Hi Nicole,

Overture provides a very useable scrolling editor for most midi controllers. Some controllers are missing (like cc22, which apparently controls GPO\'s Var1 function), but otherwise, Overture is miles above Finale in terms of midi editing. Overture has facilities to drop in some of the midi data semi-automatically (like dynamics), but I always turn that stuff off, preferring instead to do it by hand. I spend most of my midi edit time adjusting note lengths and drawing in modulation, velocity, and tempo data. Sometimes, I offset attacks in certain spots to make the overall playback more \"natural\". Currently, it\'s about a 50/50 split in terms of time spent notating and midi editing, which I find an acceptable balance. The upside is I have a reasonable simulation of the music and a score I can hand to a conductor. And with a couple days\' more effort, I also have a complete set of parts for performance.

With Overture, you have very good control over:

dynamics (patch)
durations (patch)
articulations (patch)
pedaling (patch)
tempo (master)

With GPO Studio you also pick up:

tune (patch)
pan (patch)
volume (patch)
reverb send (master)

The following additional tweaks would be nice, but require loading a midi export from Overture into some sort of midi studio product like Sonar, Logic, Cubasis, et al (which I haven\'t done):

reverb send (patch)
eq (patch & master)

And not coincidentally, most comments on the few things I\'ve posted so far can often be attributed to deficiencies in (per patch) eq and reverb send. As I\'ve indicated in another thread, it would be nice if some simple eq and a reverb send could added for the patches in GPO Studio (hint, hint, hint...). http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

mschiff
05-31-2004, 06:33 PM
Fantastic job, Darwin. That\'s one of the best I\'ve heard here.

Any chance you could provide the GPO Studio file as well?

-- Martin

Styxx
05-31-2004, 07:46 PM
Hey...I gotta tell ya...ha ha...I still have dial up service...ha ha...and it takes like fifteen minutes to download 1:54 of music...he he ... but boy was that worth it! I\'m working in my studio with my back turned to the PC. Next thing I know it the music starts, scares the crap out of me, and when I turn around there\'s this tall black rectangular thing standing in the middle of my studio!
By the way, how did you get the audio at the end that said; \"Dave, what are you doing Dave?\" And then the voice got lower and slower.
Now, would someone get me back to earth. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

That was simply awesome!

Ron Klaren
06-01-2004, 09:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
That was simply awesome!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes !

Ron

RainerVolkenandt
06-01-2004, 02:16 PM
Thats right,

I listened the piece, closed my eyes and saw the pictures of the film.

Very nice indeed. Thanks for sharing your work with us

regards
Rainer

Shazbot
06-01-2004, 03:38 PM
Ha! I just listened to this on a CD the other day and thought, \"Hey, I should try that with GPO.\" But I\'m glad you beat me to it, because I really didn\'t have the time anyway, and moreso that you did a really wonderful job.

I agree with whoever said that it sounds a bit bassy. Bring up the highs a bit and it would be perfect.

gardibolt
06-01-2004, 05:29 PM
So how did you do this with Overture? Can you go into detail as to how you assembled this very nice track? Specifically, for starters, did you use the notation interface, or the piano roll interface? What did you use for adjusting the volume? Sounds terrific.

DarwinKopp
06-01-2004, 06:34 PM
Hi gardibolt,

I copied the score as notation into Overture almost exactly and then tweaked in the piano roll window. I think the only changes I made were the published tempo was slowed a bit (common practice has this performed quite broadly), the directions were translated from German to Italian/English, and the cymbal notes were lengthened because they were notated too short (you see that a lot with some of the older percussion notation). The base volumes are adjusted in GPO Studio, with midi modulation data taking over from there.

nexus
06-03-2004, 10:34 PM
I just got around to listening to this. It's quite impressive!

My only quibble is that the timps sound like they are literaly drowning in reverb! (too much!)

I love how you have captured the opening organs pedal sense of space (what else?). I would let the contrabassoon 'breath' a short breath just before the brass enter.

I always have been a huge fan of Strauss, waaayyy before Stanley Kubrick 'threw out' Alex North's superb original score and 'ruined' the Also Sprach forever in the ears of the public....:(

galvedro
06-04-2004, 03:42 AM
I just got around to listening to this. It's quite impressive!

My only quibble is that the timps sound like they are literaly drowning in reverb! (too much!)

I love how you have captured the opening organs pedal sense of space (what else?). I would let the contrabassoon 'breath' a short breath just before the brass enter.

I always have been a huge fan of Strauss, waaayyy before Stanley Kubrick 'threw out' Alex North's superb original score and 'ruined' the Also Sprach forever in the ears of the public....:(
Hey Nexus,

It seems that your location Beyond the Blue Event Horizon is causing your posts not showing correctly. At least in my browser they're cut off at the right margin.

Anton

R. Glenn
06-04-2004, 10:41 AM
Great work Darwin. You really got that powerful sound down nicely. Like asomeone else mentioned here, the goosebump-factor is high.

Thank's for sharing. :)

Cheers

Rodney

MalteRathke
06-04-2004, 11:33 AM
Darwin,

just forgot about your track on my hd and recognized yet that it's pretty cool. I really liked the composition since "2001" and your mockup is amazing.

Malte

Hardy Heern
06-05-2004, 04:40 PM
There is a post saying " Can we fool anyone?" No answer....just listen to this and ignore the question!

Frank