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Malo
04-10-2003, 06:46 AM
Hi!

Can anyone tell me the difference in using a PCI capture card like the MiroMotion DC30plus and a firewire solution like the Canopus ADVC-100? Pro/cons in either solution?

I am a Mac user with Logic 6 and ProTools 5.2.1 LE

Thanks!

Scott Cairns
04-10-2003, 09:52 AM
Hi Malo, personally I\'d go with the ADVC-100. It\'ll connect Firewire and this box will also let you output digital picture straight to a TV.

I\'ve heard some bad reports about the DC30 from other composers. I\'m not sure on the DC30\'s specs, but the ADVC100 will let you do everything. Capture AV/DV and output to AV or DV. I\'m not sure if the DC30 has all of these options.

Also, cause the ADVC100 is an external box, you dont need to install any drivers like you would with the DC30. You also wont have any potential conflicts or crashes that can occur with a internal PCI card.

I have one and havent had any problems at all.

Cheers, Scott.

P.S. I think Pro Tools has a preview to firewire option? Not sure about LE. Anyway, you can output a display to firewire that then runs through the ADVC-100 straight to a TV. In fact Hans Zimmer has an ADVC100 and is doing this.

Malo
04-11-2003, 11:46 PM
Hi, Scott!

Thank you for your advice. I went out and bought myself an ADVC100 today after reading your post. As a test, I recorded 2-3 minutes from \"Sleepless in Seattle\" into iMovie2. I am now exporting the clip to a Quicktime movie. This sure takes an awful lot of time. I\'m sure this is bound to take a couple of hours. Is this normal? If so; a 50 minute TV show would take a whole day (if not more) to digitize and convert.

Could you give me any advice on the various video/compression settings (frame size, bit rate?), that you are using when you export to quicktime?

Scott Cairns
04-15-2003, 06:16 AM
Hi Malo, I\'m afraid I\'m not the best person to ask this! I am just getting back into the digital video side of things and am a little rusty. A couple of small things; capture uncompressed first. You may want to experiment with different codecs for your setup but from memory I think the Sorrenson codec is one of the best. Also, if you are doing a job for a production company, check what frame rate they are using and make sure to capture at the same.

THere are some here who could probably offer good advice or jump over to; http://www.creativecow.net/index.php?forumid=24 (\"http://www.creativecow.net/index.php?forumid=24\") - It\'s a forum specifically for Vegas users but has lots of knowledgable folks who usually answer your questions quick smart. You can even search on your particular question as people have certainly asked it before over there.

capturing and rednering can certainly be time consuming, again it\'s probably worth checking over at Creative Cow for some tips and tricks.

Hope this helps,

Scott.

Bruce A. Richardson
04-18-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Malo:
Hi, Scott!

Thank you for your advice. I went out and bought myself an ADVC100 today after reading your post. As a test, I recorded 2-3 minutes from \"Sleepless in Seattle\" into iMovie2. I am now exporting the clip to a Quicktime movie. This sure takes an awful lot of time. I\'m sure this is bound to take a couple of hours. Is this normal? If so; a 50 minute TV show would take a whole day (if not more) to digitize and convert.

Could you give me any advice on the various video/compression settings (frame size, bit rate?), that you are using when you export to quicktime? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Rendering takes forever. The best way to work is to do your editing by day, and render at night while you sleep. Sonic Foundry\'s Vegas is actually great for this, because you can multi-instance even across a network, and have different machines rendering while you\'re editing (or open 5-10 instances, and render all of your projects overnight, simultaneously).

Vegas is about the slickest video editing app on the planet right now. I hope they eventually achieve the market penetration with it that they deserve.

SteveHanlon
04-19-2003, 06:53 AM
Amen to that, Bruce. I keep asking the Mac Final Cut Express users why their simliraily priced software can\'t show transitions in real time like Vegas (or even like Video Factory the $70 little brother progie of Vegas Video). I don\'t know what Sonic Foundries\' secret is for that real time viewing of effects/transitions but it\'s got to spread to Apple\'s products.

Sonic Foundry is truly a gem among companies.

SteveHanlon
04-19-2003, 06:55 AM
double post

Simon Ravn
04-19-2003, 10:56 AM
This looks like a cool solution for having a video sync running. So I was wondering, will all sequencers be able to use this and send the output to the Firewire solution? Also, do you then need to have a smaller window running on your screen in the sequencer at the same time, for the firewire-solution to work? And does the box automatically scales the output to full screen?

Scott Cairns
04-19-2003, 04:22 PM
This looks like a cool solution for having a video sync running. So I was wondering, will all sequencers be able to use this and send the output to the Firewire solution? Also, do you then need to have a smaller window running on your screen in the sequencer at the same time, for the firewire-solution to work? And does the box automatically scales the output to full screen?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Simon, I dont know of any sequencers that are currently outputting to Firewire (there could be, I\'m just not aware of them). I did hear that Steinberg dont have any immediate plans to do so.

What I am doing is syncing up Vegas to Cubase SX on the same machine via MTC. I am using MOL+ to create a named pipe. In other words, my sequencer isnt running a video of any sort - Vegas is slaved to Cubase.

At the start of a project I have Cubase running midi, VST\'s and triggering Giga. It is also sending MTC to Vegas and thus triggering the video playback. When I am happy with the piece, I render all of the files over to Vegas for audio mixdown and mastering. At this point of course all of my video and audio is in the same application and sync is no longer needed. Certainly the playback in Vegas via Firewire is full screen.

Being MTC, the playback isn\'t as fluid as SMPTE but so far I havent had any problems with it. I just have to wait a couple of bars for the video playback to kick in.

Cheers, Scott.

Simon Ravn
04-19-2003, 04:56 PM
OK thanks Scott. I don\'t know if that solution sounds particularly sexy to me, but I\'ll consider it.

Malo
04-20-2003, 07:25 AM
Hi, Simon!

Logic Platinum 6 (mac-only) is able to output movies in Quicktime DV format to FireWire. When choosing the FireWire output option, no movie window on my screen appears, and my TV monitor shows full-screen video.

I think I read somewhere that ProTools 6 has the same option. Hope this helps!

Marsdy
04-20-2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Malo:
Hi, Simon!

Logic Platinum 6 (mac-only) is able to output movies in Quicktime DV format to FireWire. When choosing the FireWire output option, no movie window on my screen appears, and my TV monitor shows full-screen video.

I think I read somewhere that ProTools 6 has the same option. Hope this helps! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Digital Performer will also output QT DV format to Firewire. There\'s also a Mac app called Echofire that will route DV format video from any app to Firewire so it may be possible to use this in Cubase on the Mac.

Simon Ravn
04-20-2003, 09:14 AM
Stop all that stupid Mac talk!! images/icons/smile.gif I need a PC solution - Nuendo2 or Logic! Maybe Nuendo2 will have it.

Nick Batzdorf
04-20-2003, 09:16 PM
What I use is an Aurora Fuse card, which uses the same chips as the Miro DC30+. I\"m surprised that you have to wait for the FW capture to \"render\"; you certainly don\'t with the Fuse card - it\'s just a real-time capture.

But the Miro is gone, the Fuse won\'t work under OS X, and Aurora\'s next card is priced way OTT for reference video, so everyone\'s hoping Firewire will work well. I haven\'t used it yet, so I can\'t comment.

And I don\'t know about PC solutions.

Marsdy
04-20-2003, 11:15 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Stop all that stupid Mac talk!! images/icons/smile.gif I need a PC solution - Nuendo2 or Logic! Maybe Nuendo2 will have it. [/QUOTE

Simon

Echofire is available for PC
http://www.synthetic-ap.com/ (\"http://www.synthetic-ap.com/\")

Marsdy
04-20-2003, 11:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Stop all that stupid Mac talk!! images/icons/smile.gif I need a PC solution - Nuendo2 or Logic! Maybe Nuendo2 will have it. [/QUOTE

Simon

Echofire is available for PC
http://www.synthetic-ap.com/ (\"http://www.synthetic-ap.com/\")

Malo
04-21-2003, 05:36 AM
Hi, Nick!

The capturing of a video is real-time with FireWire, too. It\'s just that 3:31 minutes amounts to 724 Mb. Imagine the file size of a 45 minute TV show! Way too large!

I would sure like to know if you have any favorite compression settings to get file sizes down.

Simon Ravn
04-21-2003, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Marsdy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Stop all that stupid Mac talk!! images/icons/smile.gif I need a PC solution - Nuendo2 or Logic! Maybe Nuendo2 will have it. [/QUOTE

Simon

Echofire is available for PC
http://www.synthetic-ap.com/ (\"http://www.synthetic-ap.com/\") <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Marsdy, looks interesting - have you tried this yourself?

Marsdy
04-21-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Marsdy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Stop all that stupid Mac talk!! images/icons/smile.gif I need a PC solution - Nuendo2 or Logic! Maybe Nuendo2 will have it. [/QUOTE

Simon

Echofire is available for PC
http://www.synthetic-ap.com/ (\"http://www.synthetic-ap.com/\") <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Marsdy, looks interesting - have you tried this yourself? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I have the Mac version of Echofire although it\'s a bit redundant now Logic and DP do the same thing on their own. It worked fine if you take into account Firewire latency. There\'s a slight sync offset in the video output to Firwire in relation to the video\'s audio which would be coming out of your computer\'s audio hardware. In other words the picture is a bit late! The delay is consitent though and you can enter an offset in Echofire.

Bruce A. Richardson
04-22-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Stop all that stupid Mac talk!! images/icons/smile.gif I need a PC solution - Nuendo2 or Logic! Maybe Nuendo2 will have it. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Vegas.

Simon Ravn
04-22-2003, 06:52 PM
Doing a bit more research, I read that it uses a significant amount of CPU doing both the Echo Fire and the streaming to the Firewire device itself. Anyone who has some experience with how well it works and how much it detracts from how much else you can use your CPU for in your sequencer? And also, can you choose compression levels so you dont have to stream 100mb/sec to get a fullscreen picture? images/icons/smile.gif

Synth2k
04-22-2003, 11:20 PM
The Miglia Directors Cut/Directors Cut 2 is lovely. It works great cross-platform and runs on firewire. On the PC you can capture DV into Vegas Video and play back in Logic etc. The DC30pro/plus seemed to be troublesome on the PC and especially liked to lock up Sonar (due to the video codec it uses, I am told). It\'ll output to an external set like most boxes, although unless I\'m previewing video for a client and need to turn on an external set I almost always write to a video float in Logic.

If you have a DV deck you should be able to go into your firewire port on your Mac. If you need composite inputs, a box like the Directors Cut works wonders.

Ryan.

Marsdy
04-23-2003, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
Doing a bit more research, I read that it uses a significant amount of CPU doing both the Echo Fire and the streaming to the Firewire device itself. Anyone who has some experience with how well it works and how much it detracts from how much else you can use your CPU for in your sequencer? And also, can you choose compression levels so you dont have to stream 100mb/sec to get a fullscreen picture? images/icons/smile.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Can\'t speak for the PC version but on the Mac, Echofire wasn\'t too bad on CPU usage. Isn\'t there a demo version you could try? If you are outputting video to Firewire then you would use DV format video. Compression level is fixed and the data rate is 3.6mb per sec, not broadcast quality but not far of!

Simon Ravn
04-23-2003, 10:03 AM
OK 3.6mb/sec is quite a lot. I would only need this for previewing/syncing, so it doesnt have to look very good really. Hmm.

Marsdy
04-23-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
OK 3.6mb/sec is quite a lot. I would only need this for previewing/syncing, so it doesnt have to look very good really. Hmm. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Simon

3.6mb seems like a lot but is not quite that simple. Say I am playing an mpeg movie in Logic. The CPU has to decompress on the fly and this obviously puts a load on the CPU. This is the same reason DAWs won\'t play back mp3s because of the real time decoding hit. Your data rate might only be 1mb per second for example but the CPU is working hard doing the decoding.

DV format video played over Firewire is different. Chips in the Firewire hardware, (a DV camcorder for example) decompress the video and not the computer\'s CPU. All the computer has to do is stream the movie\'s raw data off disk and pipe it out to Firewire. It helps to stream the video off a different drive to your audio and samples of course and you would turn off the video displaying on your computer\'s desktop if you have this option.

Scott Cairns
04-23-2003, 08:24 PM
Vegas has an amazingly small footprint considering what it does. I havent noticed any overt CPU or disk usage when I play video out to firewire.

One of my next purchases is in fact an external firewire drive. They can easily stream at 40meg per second and are pretty cheap. I\'m looking at a 7200rpm, 120 Gig, external Firewire drive for just over $200 U.S. Many of the video pro\'s capture straight to these drives when doing a project.

Also, due to todays technology in the way of transferring data, there is very, very little CPU utilization compared to the old PIO days.

I certainly agree with Dave though that depending on the form of compression or even the codec you are using there can be greater CPU load.

I have to dig up my college notes! I learnt all of this stuff but do you think I can remember it? images/icons/smile.gif

Cheers, Scott.

PeterRoos
04-24-2003, 03:20 AM
Just configured my Vegas 4 update on my laptop (Dell Inspiron 8200 running XP) and to have it receive MTC from a MidiOverLan channel from my sequencer PC.

Works great, I can now even sync widescreen 1024 x 576 MPEG-2 with Logic. I have no hardware yet to stream it to the firewire port, but I can imagine I could also drive a widescreen TV now images/icons/smile.gif

It now takes 2 seconds to get started and synced, but I guess I can tweak that, also by using smaller clips. This test was with a rather high quality scene from a DVD.

I found it was quite essential to use MPEG-2 format. An AVI with the Indeo codec couldn\'t be previewed without huge skips. Prolly has to do with keyframe rate.

A nice setup that didn\'t cost me any extra hardware.

Cheers,

Scott Cairns
04-24-2003, 05:54 AM
Glad to hear it worked for you Peter. I havent noticed any performance variation at all by previewing via Firewire to the TV.

Using MTC there always seems to be a short period of \"catch up\" - I actually don\'t know how accurate MTC is compared to SMPTE, but I have read that MTC is also supposed to be frame accurate.

On the other hand, I haven\'t really had the time to experiment with different frame-sizes and codecs. I have been running things full size, uncompressed for the most part. It seems logical that playback would be faster and smoother on smaller and more efficiently compressed movies.

I will definetely continue to experiment with this setup as I really enjoy viewing things full-screen on TV. images/icons/wink.gif

Cheers, Scott.