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Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 05:12 PM
It\'s official. The first sample library for intelligent people only. \"Biased Liberal Prepared Piano FX\" available for download soon in 24 bit Kontakt format. Library free to anyone who writes me an intelligent letter condemning the Bush administration. This is no joke. Details about where to send the email, the samples and the rules coming soon........

Nick Phoenix images/icons/grin.gif

hello
03-20-2003, 06:08 PM
EDIT: THIS IS A RESPONSE TO THIS TOPIC ORIGINALLY BEING POSTED IN THE \"SAMPLE LIBRARIES\" FORUM.


Hi Nick Phoenix !

With all due respect

Every war is a tragedy - for the iraqi people, and for those over there fighting for what they believe in, or are lead to believe in if you prefer... Soldiers, and civilians (human shields, red cross) working for peace and their families.

I don´t think they benefit from this...

I could write you that letter if you want, but not to get some samples - i´d like to think for myself without being \"rewarded\" for the \"right way of thinking\"...

I understand that this is a heated debate, but maybe we´re better off taking it somewhere else, where it could make a difference - at this point, i can´t see how it could be constructive just to get your own opinion reinforced by some (a LOT of...) people agreeing with you, while alienating the others even more.

Hope i made my point without being disrespecting, that is not my meaning.

We have the privilege even to be able to discuss these matters - let´s agree on that whatever happens, we won´t start our own wars on this forum... That would be a real progress for mankind.

With all due respect

MastersMusic
03-20-2003, 06:37 PM
Wrong place for this discussion dude. Give it a rest!
By the way brah - I like your libraries, but still think you are way out of line.

Get hold of yourself before you... mmm, too late.

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 06:59 PM
You guys make good points, but where else can we talk about this stuff. Americans are being fed lie after lie. I have to do everything I can. Anything less would be unpatriotic. But you\'re right, trying to bribe people into supporting my point of view is absurd. I just want a little truth. People are dying right now. Think about that. You can be sure that this won\'t solve the terrorist threat, it will aggravate it. Anyway, I am still going to give away the prepared piano library as an offer and hope for peace.

Lewis
03-20-2003, 07:02 PM
Superb Nick. I love the idea and the concept. Its ALWAYS relevant to debate this topic, since it itvolves both living chimps and human beings.

You guys need to get a life besides composing. I think Nicks political standpoint is far more relevant then all discussions here.

Honestly. Does it matter whether samples are dry and wet - as opposed to 1000 of people losing their life? Do we make any difference here on northern? Or are we just leaning back - letting time go - day by day?

The LEAST we can do is to debate the world around us - a world that could also despire/inspire us as composers.

Keep it up Nick.

Love - Chris

Lance_M
03-20-2003, 07:05 PM
Nick, having your own views is great. Being able to freely express them is great. But right now I\'m embarrassed to be a Quantum Leap customer. images/icons/tongue.gif

With a new library on the horizon, one would think you should practice some public relations, especially with a competitive product such as VSL already on the market. This isn\'t the time or place for a comment like that, regardless of any humor intended. It is simply WAY too sensitive of a subject with the current war.

So again... as an owner of Guitar & Bass, Brass, VotA and Rare Instruments, I almost feel ashamed to have a connection with the company. Be very aware that this is not because my views differ that much from yours, as this is all coming from an angry Texan that voted for Gore. But as a business, you lose credibility with posts like that. You might as well have placed an ad for your symphonic orchestra library in Hustler magazine.

Feel free to make statements. But as a businessman, be smart about how they may affect your company. Time and place, man... time and place.

AJF
03-20-2003, 07:10 PM
Take your anti-Americanism elsewhere. No one wants to hear it.


Moderators: Please move this thread to OT or better yet, just delete it.

Lewis
03-20-2003, 07:14 PM
AJF and Lance. You are living in the old world. Its VERY common to mix morals with business today - and why not? You dont HAVE to like Nicks oppinion, but you can still like his samples. Thats BUSINESS ATTITUDE to me.

I for one will def. support the company alot more due to Nicks openminded attitude.

I think its yet another sign of quality and heart behind the things. I dont want somesterile, all-smiling suntanned 20 year old sales assistant saying: \"Everything is ok - as long as I just smile and pretend nothing happend\".

I want somebody with soul and attitude.

I got that. Now what do you got left?

Business without attitude? Gonna lead you nowhere.
If you were really into \"business\" you would know that the laws in this area are VERY different from real life. Nicks standpoint is perfectly natural - and he has the guts to express it.

Thats cool, intelligent and the few conservative customers he will loose - will be replaced by people like me.

Love - Chris

Lance_M
03-20-2003, 07:25 PM
lol, I\'m not debating \"guts\" or \"heart\". Merely that 1) there are ways to practice a \"business attitude\" that includes strong morals without alienating any potential customers, which is what Nick is in danger of by the little stunt displayed above, and 2) there are ways for Nick to express his political views without bringing his company into it in the very slightest.

leaping frog
03-20-2003, 07:25 PM
Personally i think that if being patriotic is fully supporting the constitution (and what better legacy came from America?) I would feel betrayed right now (and scared)

You might argue that this is not the place for such a debate but since this administration has total control over regular media where else can you voice your opinion?
(people vs war in the USA are at least 30% (way more i would think) of general population and yet about 1% of peace minded people appearances on corporate media were represented)

If this site is a community, what is wrong about voicing one\'s opinion among people you feel might share some of your views?

And if you don\'t share them, debating certainly beats censorship and repression.

It seems to me that right now big business is the main reason we are at war. Business is the last thing i would try to support as a challenger to justice and truth. You can have it, it will eventually lead to our undoing...

PS: Nick, i am not writing this just because I lust for your library. images/icons/wink.gif

hello
03-20-2003, 07:38 PM
Lewis, please read my post again - and don´t jump to conclusions. I find this VERY important to discuss, but equally important is not trying to buy votes or alienate those with other points of view. They need to be heard too, ´cause you don´t change anything by putting others down; that only aggreviates the problem - that is my take on this.

Did you and AJF come any closer to being able to share our planet by this post ?

There is a general discussion forum, and nick even has his own - but i still don´t think you´ll be able to change anything in here, only get your own view reinforced by people already thinking like you. To really make a difference, you DO need to get a life besides composing and posting in this forum...

MDesigner
03-20-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Lewis:
AJF and Lance. You are living in the old world. Its VERY common to mix morals with business today<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Name some examples of very successful businesses that do this. I\'ve never seen Cisco salespeople stating strong opinions on politics. Nor Lucent, Microsoft, Bank One, or any other company.

I have to agree with Lance on this one. I personally don\'t feel ashamed to be an EastWest customer at all though.. I think the sounds are great and Nick is cool. But I do think that Nick stands to lose some customers over this. That might be stupid on the customers\' end, but if Nick cares about income and retaining every single customer, then yes.. he should watch what he says (public image), and post under another name when it comes to touchy topics like this one.

Image, image, image. You know, sometimes people gain business just because they\'re nice! I\'ve heard a few times at work that people decided to go with us because we \"listened well to their problem\" or \"liked our attitude.\" If we went off saying Bush is a chimp, OR Bush is a GOD.. who knows what opinion the customer has, and if they hate my view, they could take their business elsewhere. Stupid of them for judging like that, but stupid of me for mixing business with [insert controversial topic here.. politics, religion, etc]

Just my two cents.

hello
03-20-2003, 07:47 PM
Nick

I think you can read between the lines and realize that i think it´s equally important that everyone do what they can, and i give you all credit for this.

OTOH, i think you got my point...

With all due respect

Does It Matter?
03-20-2003, 07:48 PM
AJF, it is not Anti-American to oppose this war. If anything, it is completely what America is supposed to be. Freedom of expression.

However, I agree with Saddam\'s termination. If anyone wants to debate me on this, feel free. I\'ll crush you with facts.

MDesigner
03-20-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Does It Matter?:
AJF, it is not Anti-American to oppose this war. If anything, it is completely what America is supposed to be. Freedom of expression.

However, I agree with Saddam\'s termination. If anyone wants to debate me on this, feel free. I\'ll crush you with facts. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes.. Saddam is a horrible waste of flesh and blood. You know he first murdered when he was 10? (give/take a couple years)

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 08:03 PM
Lance,
I realize that this stuff doesn\'t help my business. I just don\'t care. My libraries are what they are and I don\'t make them purely for business reasons. The orchestra library will speak for itself and has many people involved in it. So hopefully my comments won\'t hurt sales. I don\'t really see the connection any way. I have concrete evidence that our government is full of crooks, and some of the most sinister crooks to ever grace this great country. I must share this information. What\'s that got to do with samples? I am sharing it here because truth has very little place in our current society. This is the most effective way of spreading information which has been blocked by this administration. My neighbor works for FOX NEWS. I know what I am talking about.

hello
03-20-2003, 08:44 PM
I think you should care...

You´re a respected business man on these forums, use that in a positive way to get your message through.

Start a new thread (in the general discussions forum...), expressing your views on this and offer the library to everybody as a \"thank you for listening\".
...or sell it cheap, let the profite go to help organisations - and let people know it!
...or join forces with other developers to make a statement, then i think you might have a better chance to make people listen.

Munsie
03-20-2003, 08:45 PM
\"With all due respect, Every war is a tragedy - for the iraqi people, and for those over there fighting for what they believe in, or are lead to believe in if you prefer... Soldiers, and civilians (human shields, red cross) working for peace and their families.\"

\"Wrong place for this discussion dude. Give it a rest! By the way brah - I like your libraries, but still think you are way out of line.\"

\"So again... as an owner of Guitar & Bass, Brass, VotA and Rare Instruments, I almost feel ashamed to have a connection with the company.\"

\"Take your anti-Americanism elsewhere. No one wants to hear it.\"

\"lol, I\'m not debating \"guts\" or \"heart\". Merely that 1) there are ways to practice a \"business attitude\" that includes strong morals without alienating any potential customers, which is what Nick is in danger of by the little stunt displayed above, and 2) there are ways for Nick to express his political views without bringing his company into it in the very slightest.\"

\"But I do think that Nick stands to lose some customers over this. That might be stupid on the customers\' end, but if Nick cares about income and retaining every single customer, then yes.. he should watch what he says (public image), and post under another name when it comes to touchy topics like this one.\"

Attention Doug Rodgers, East West:

Obviously Nick is making an out of himself AGAIN. This is not the place for him to use his ego and gain support from those that think he is a sampling GOD, on the contrary, he is losing credibility FAST and has already cost your company at least 1 purchase of Hardcore Bass and QL Strat. And I assume more will follow. Nick asks where else can he posts his views, I say he needs to go to his local TV News, write an article in his local newspaper, walk the streets with posters proclaiming his message, post his thoughts on the newsgroups, political forums, etc. (Make sure you use your real name Nick) But at the very least you guys need to get this jerk off this forum. Your company EAST WEST (which is THE EXCLUSIVE distributor of all things made by Quantum Leap and Nick Phoenix) is losing credibility as well. When I first joined this forum I read message after message about Nick Phoenix, his ego, his piss poor support, his quick mouth, etc, etc. Now he has come full circle and proven to his potential customer base just how much of an he really is.

Get him off this forum, Doug Rodgers, you ARE losing money and it will get worse, and in Nick\'s own words HE DOESNT CARE. If YOU do care, get his off this forum.

tonylombardi
03-20-2003, 08:51 PM
\"My neighbor works for FOX NEWS. I know what I am talking about.\"
Is that a joke? I always thought FOX NEWS was kinda like HARD COPY. I admit that\'s just the impression I get though. I don\'t really watch it much.
These days the line between entertainment and news is growing ever so thin.

Anthony Lombardi

Joanne Babunovic
03-20-2003, 09:00 PM
Intelligent, thinking people, as we are - it\'s natural to want to discuss this controversial event. Anyone know a good website? Someplace with some calm, cognitive debate, someplace where people won\'t crush people with anything? images/icons/smile.gif

Lance_M
03-20-2003, 09:01 PM
\"My neighbor works for FOX NEWS. I know what I am talking about.\"

And I have a degree in marketing (otherwise, I would not be so upfront about this. You should be extremely grateful that I was trying to HELP you in as lighthearted of a way as I did, Nick). And I am a customer of East West. And, unless Doug or someone of the like puts a leash on you, a former customer of Quantum Leap and East West.

If you \"don\'t care\" to maintain credibility of your product, I don\'t care to purchase it. If you truly don\'t care how it affects you, think about poor ol\' Doug over there, \'cause he\'s about to get dragged into this topic. images/icons/smile.gif

Lewis
03-20-2003, 09:02 PM
\"I have a degree in marketing\"... LOL! Scarry! What does that mean? What degree do you have?

You guys need to find a purpose in life. Nick is right on and you just cant handle it.

If Nick should lose the few of you as customers - there is only reason to be proud. You dont deserve it.

And believe me Nick. Your sales WONT be hurt by your comments. You might lose one or two fanatic patriots, but you will gain a legion of fans.

The majority of public in the world are AGAINST this stupid war - and seen from a marketing perspective this is just an interesting experiment. You might wanna consider moving to Germany or France.

Europe greets you!

I love it - and dont stop because a few people cant handle the truth. Whiners.

Love - Chris

hello
03-20-2003, 09:16 PM
This is not about getting a fan club.
It´s about how to make people listen to what you have to say, and actually make a difference...

Post seems to have been moved to General Discussions forum BTW

Lewis
03-20-2003, 09:34 PM
Agreed. I just cant stand the conclusion: \"If you wanna do business - dont have any oppinion about anything\".

This is the most inproductive thinking I have seen in a long time. Business is NOT about being a coldass all the way. Its about having a standpoint and a damn fine brand. Nick got both - and for obvious reasons. Not only a superb producer, but also an intelligent man with something as weird as: \"emotions\" and \"political standpoint\".

Love Chris -

I can PROMISE you that the future of business life is (always been) defined by people with visions and standpoints. You wanna be \"blob\" all the way. Go flip burgers.

Love - Chris

Jake Johnson
03-20-2003, 10:01 PM
I too find it hard to believe that anyone could call the opposition to the attack on Iraq antiAmerican. A fast read of the major news sights will reveal that around half the population of the United States opposes this war, including many people in the intelligence community, who argue that we encourage violence by being violent.

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 10:41 PM
Munsie,
You can\'t take the truth so instead you do anything you can to shut me up. It doesn\'t work, so you write a letter to Doug. What\'s wrong with a little heated discussion? I do think that I may shock and offend people and I am sorry for that. You know, the US has already dropped more bombs than in the entire last Gulf War. Guess that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Saddam may be evil, but the question is, who will lead Iraq when he\'s gone?
What is our plan for Iraq? Will we leave it in shambles like Afghanistan? Will we appoint Unocal officials to run Iraq, like in Afghanistan? Will we change the basis of it\'s oil production back to the dollar to help save our failing economy?

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 10:46 PM
Tony,
I guess it sounds like a joke, but my neighbor produces news shows for Fox. And believe me, FOX has legions of fans who feel that FOX is the most unbiased news show on TV! Anyway, My neighbor admitted that there are strict guidelines and blockouts about what you can say in a report. And most topics are blacklisted. Land of the free press!

Lewis
03-21-2003, 12:58 AM
I wanna bring in a few numbers and questions:

Name the only country in the world that ever used an atomic bomb?

Name the country that tells others are not allowed to have weapons of massdestruction?

Name the country that attacks others by saying its defending itself?

US should have a defense budget - it should be renamed to attack budget.

Name the country which cant even have a simple election?

Name the country which claims to be democratic, but only have to choices of votes?

Name it!

Say the word.

I love the US - but I cant stand its way of handling foreign affairs.

Diplomacy has lost. Democracy is a slangword for war. The press coverage is a joke.

Sigh...

Anyway. Im gonna write a letter to Doug aswell. Telling him he got the most talented producer in the world, which dares to stand by his points. I gotta admire this. Its THAT simple.

Nick. I love you - and glad your guts dont faint to these irrelevant half-patriotic cucumber brains trying to solve the world by staying passive.

Love - Chris

vaultcomplex
03-21-2003, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by Lewis:
I wanna bring in a few numbers and questions:

1.Name the only country in the world that ever used an atomic bomb?

2.Name the country that tells others are not allowed to have weapons of massdestruction?

3.Name the country that attacks others by saying its defending itself?

4.US should have a defense budget - it should be renamed to attack budget.

5.Name the country which cant even have a simple election?

6.Name the country which claims to be democratic, but only have to choices of votes?

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">First off, you mention more people are against the war, but all the recent polls show that a clear majority approve of the war. USA Today recently reported that 76% approve of the engagement in Iraq. Where exactly are you getting your information? Not from actual worldwide polls obviously.

To answer your questions.

1. USA, Russia, France, England, China have all detonated Atom bombs. However, I suppose you mean in combat. It\'s a silly question anyway. Are you going to condemn the first country to use any type of bomb? First country to use explosives? First country to use a gun? First person to hit someone with a stick? Yeah, the US used an atom bomb to end WWII in the Pacific, and thank god no one has used one in combat since.

2. There is no single \"Country.\" Apparently you haven\'t heard of the U.N, which is comprised of 191 countries which have voted many times on many countries to ban the use and armament of weapons of mass destruction. The vote was unanimous to ban Iraq from having weapons of mass destruction by the way.

3. I\'m willing to bet you every country in the world has said that at least once throughout history.

4. Now you\'re just whining.

5. How about Iraq.

6. There is a difference between being democratic and an actual democracy. You are probably confusing the two words. The U.S. is a republic, not a democracy.

It seems to be pointless to debate any of your \"points\" because you are so blatently misinformed about what\'s really going on in the world. All your questions, which obviously implied that USA was the answer to all of them, prove that you are obvlivious to actual facts and world history. Maybe you need to go back to high school Civics class and come back when you know what you\'re talking about.

§eth
03-21-2003, 01:42 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lewis:
[QB] I wanna bring in a few numbers and questions:

Name the only country in the world that ever used an atomic bomb?
Built by the Germans ( i do believe our beloved Albert Einstien had his hand in this

Name the country that tells others are not allowed to have weapons of massdestruction?
Not quite correct here either We all know he has them he denied it and is using them against us! We currently (well at least this afternoon had 44 country\'s that agreed with this war effort) maybe more now. I wish you had a clue of what he was capable of, it\'s not some friday night scary movie, it\'s deadly and very real. The US is not trying to take over and set up government in Iraq, we just want that monster to quit killing his own people and let them have their own country with out fear of being executed. He\'s a big bully and He sucks!
Name the country that attacks others by saying its defending itself?

US should have a defense budget - it should be renamed to attack budget.
Granted the US does put it\'s nose where it does not belong sometimes but generally for the good of the people. It\'s scary how real \"Tears of the Sun\" really is, If the world only had a clue how much this really happens!
Name the country which cant even have a simple election?
I thank GOD we even have that choice to have a choice in selecting our leadership without fear of death!

Name the country which claims to be democratic, but only have to choices of votes?
We have 4 choices ( Republican, Democrate, independant, and the choice to not vote at all)

Name it!

Say the word.

I love the US - but I cant stand its way of handling foreign affairs.

Diplomacy has lost. Democracy is a slangword for war. The press coverage is a joke.
I Hate watching the news- especially times like this- They give away so much info that the general public has no need to know! Who flippen cares every little detail, Oh i know you do right- well so does Sadaam, He has his own little eyes and ears by watching the news. Makes me ill!
Sigh...

I\'m thankful for even being able to respond without having my hands cut off or worse! I Love my Country and I\'m very Proud of My President! I\'m honered to be an American, and Yes IN GOD We Trust Like it or Lump it.

Seth

Nick Phoenix
03-21-2003, 02:25 AM
www.Zmag.org (\"http://www.Zmag.org\")

Lewis
03-21-2003, 03:36 AM
READ BELOW!

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\\ &#0124;&#0124; /
\\ &#0124;&#0124; /
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\\/

Lewis
03-21-2003, 03:49 AM
God LESS America list:

· 3,000,000 Vietnamese murdered over the course of about 30 years of US aggression.

· Well over 300,000 Japanese were massacred when the US raided Tokyo and dropped nuclear bombs on the urban civilian areas of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

· 600,000 civilians were killed in Cambodia by US bombing between 1969 and 1975.

· Over 500,000 people were killed in Laos when America subjected civilians to “secret bombing” from 1964 to 1973, dropping over two million tons of bombs on the country. Over one fourth of the population also became refugees.

· 100,000 people were murdered in South Korea prior to the Korean War by a brutal repression supported by US forces in 1945. This includes between 30,000 and 40,000 killed during the suppression of a peasant revolt on Cheju Island.

· Up to 4,500,000 Koreans were killed from 1951 to 1953 during America’s massive slaughter in the Korean War.

· 200,000 were murdered when the Philippines were conquered by American forces. (This took place just over 100 years ago.)

· 23,000 people were slaughtered in Taiwan by US-backed, trained, equipped, and funded forces (Chiang’s Nationalist army) during the late 1940s.

· 700,000 Indonesians (mostly landless peasants) were murdered in 1965 when the US armed and supported General Suharto.

· 200,000 were slaughtered in East Timor in 1975 by General Suharto with US support.

· 750,000 civilians were driven from their homes in East Timor by Indonesian forces in 1999 and 10,000 were killed.

· Over 1,700,000 Iraqis have been killed by US bombings and sanctions, mostly women and children.

· Over 1,000,000 lives were lost during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s in which the US used direct force and supported Hussein and Iraq.

· 35,000 Kurds were killed, 3,500 villages were destroyed, and between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 became homeless as a result of aggression by Turkey with US arming and training in the 1990s.

· Over 1,000,000 people were killed in Afghanistan’s civil war from 1979 to 1992, in which the US strongly supported the Moujahedeen, the most violent and sadistic of the forces. (This also set the stage for the CIA-backed Taliban to attain power.)

· 45,000 people were killed in South Lebanon since 1982 by Israel, always armed and supported by the US.

· Thousands have been killed in Palestine and millions (in both Palestine and Lebanon) were made refugees by US-backed Israel.

· Over 150,000 were killed in Greece when America advised, equipped, and financed violent interventions in the late 1940s and late 1960s.

· Over 75,000 civilians were killed and over one million refugees were created in El Salvador from 1980 to 1994 when the US intensely supported the efforts of a brutal regime and its death squads to eliminate a popular uprising.

· 40,000 civilians were killed by the US-backed National Guard in Nicaragua over the course of almost 50 years.

· 30,000 lives were killed by the US contras in Nicaragua from 1979 to 1989.

· 200,000 Guatemalans were slaughtered from 1960-1990s by a military apparatus trained, armed, funded, and assisted by America.

· Over 35,000 Colombian civilians have been killed during the US-supported Columbian war against left-wing rebels.

· More than 4,000 innocent civilians were killed in Panama during the US invasion in 1989.

· Hundreds of thousands were killed by US direct and indirect interventions in Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Peru, and Argentina from the mid 60s through the 80s.

· 50,000 Haitians were killed when the US military destroyed a peasant uprising in 1915.

· Between 4,000 and 5,000 Haitians were killed in the early 1990s by US-established forces.

· Thousands were killed in the Dominican Republic during the 1960s when US and Dominican troops crushed a pro-Bosch rebellion.

· Over 3,000 were killed and countless others injured by US interventions in Cuba.

· Hundreds were killed or injured when the US invaded Grenada in 1983.

· Over 50,000 Somalians were killed between 1978 and 1990 by US-supported Siad Barre.

· Up to 10,000 more Somalians were killed by US troops during America’s “humanitarian mission” in 1993.

· In the US-supported Rwandan genocide, an estimated 800,000 people were killed in just 100 days in 1994.

· Over 300,000 were killed and 80,000 were crippled in Angola from a US-supported civil war.

· Tens of thousands were killed and up to 200,000 were tortured in Chad by Hissen Habre with US support during the 1980’s.

· 1,500,000 were killed between 1980 and 1988 in southern Africa by the US-armed South Africa.

· Thousands of people in Pacific islands, Puerto Rico, Utah, California, Nevada, Washington, New Mexico, and various other places have been killed, infected, or harmed as a result of US weapon experiments (especially nuclear weapons and weapons using depleted uranium).

· Hundreds of civil rights activists have been beaten, tortured, framed, and killed in the US by government agencies in recent history.

· Hundreds of Black Panther supporters and American Indians were framed, beaten, or murdered by the FBI and its cohorts in the late 60’s and early 70’s.

· Over a thousand American Muslims “disappeared” after September 11, 2001, and have been detained without evidence of wrongdoing.

· As of the this publishing, over 10,000 were killed in Afghanistan by America’s “War on Terror.”

From \"Land of Hypocrisy\"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972506802/qid=1044363852/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6818623-6123257?v=glance&s=books (\"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972506802/qid=1044363852/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6818623-6123257?v=glance&s=books\")

steve_t
03-21-2003, 04:33 AM
http://www.lifeisajoke.com/Bush/checklist.jpg

This has become a nasty thread. Keep it clean boys or I´ll post a new kazoo song on this forum every day.

Z6
03-21-2003, 05:02 AM
But Lewis, it was for their own good, no?

I, for one, would be happy to die at the hands of the U.S. as long as I knew that my death meant freedom and a better world. I think the rest of us should get real about this. America is good and kind and helps us all. We should be proud to play a small part in their good works by offering our lives. After all, they are free and we are not. We are stupid and grub around in the dirt while they are rich and successful, and therefore deserving of our blood. They invented democracy and we don\'t understand democracy so the least we can do is die - it\'s not much, but it\'s all we can offer.

America is very clever. It \'elects\' a guy who looks like his IQ is barely scraping eighty, but of course he\'s really a genius. Americans are right to be proud of their president, he is doing something unique, he is destroying his own economy, murdering thousands of bugs, he has dismantled the U.N., he has started a holy war that will not end with the murder of innocent Iraqis.

Americans should be very proud. Maybe in the next life I\'ll get to be an American, and when I kick arse, little brown children get to die all over the world. The UN (remember them?) has estimated that one million Iraqi children will starve as a direct result of this \'war\'. How happy they would be to know that it was for such a good cause.

I wonder how Tony Blair and other leaders even have a conversation with Bush, do they use flashcards?

I wish people would stop talking about \'Saddam\' as if Bush\'s smarmy declarations and personal attacks actually mean that this murderous attack is anything other than the killing of innocents and the creation of a new world chaos.

I still haven\'t heard a single fact that \'justifies\' this murder. I hear how bad Saddam is over and over again, as if anyone disagreed with that. It is not a justification for the murder of Iraqis.

Already we hear that the Turks may be planning to go kick some Kurd arse themselves - luverly oil, going cheap.

I\'d suggest that the countries surrounding Iraq (you know, the ones we\'re helping) charter every unused airplane in the U.S. (and there will be plenty of them) and they send all the refugees to Britain and America. Three or four million Iraqis would be quite a strain on the Iranian economy, but I\'m sure that Jonny Brit and Homer Yank would be happy to invite these people into their homes.

Or perhaps we could support them all in a march to Britain, where they could choose to stay or go to the U.S.?

Incidentally, Albert Einstein had very little to do with building the nuclear bomb. His equations showed what was possible and he implored the US to build one, but he didn\'t actually build it. And he certainly didn\'t ask the U.S. to drop two of them on civilians.

And, in the eighties a UN resolution was tabled levelled at Iraq and its chemical and biological weapons. The US veto\'d it. Apparently, that veto was not unreasonable because then Saddam was a swell guy, and chemical weapons were just dandy.

The US, the British, the French, all supplied these weapons.

George Bush is a simpleton, a sub-bumpkin, his mind is as slow as molassas, he can hardly form a sentence or pronounce a word with more than two syllables. This is what rules the U.S. Empire. If these were simply insults, I might feel safe. Unfortunately they are not.

So, who\'s next? Iran? Lybia? How can we kill all those pesky Palestinians without killing any valuable Israelis? What about North Korea? Hell, those Koreans are mental, they might even attack the US? How stupid that would be; we would kick their filthy yellow gook arses. Anyone else want a fight? Any other evil ones we can attack? This is fun. It\'s about time we sorted the world out. It is a mess. Sure there will be colateral damage but what do we care? They are bad. Do you know that Saddam has been flouting UN resolutions for the past 12 years? - Bet you didn\'t. Well he has, so we\'re going to kill those babies, and those grannies. They all wear stupid towels on their heads and deserve to die anyway.

Lewis
03-21-2003, 05:15 AM
Hehehehe. I hear ya Z6.

There is nothing wrong in this thread getting \"nasty\". We are debating politics - and when someone says: \"I am proud of my president\" - he must expect some reaction. I mean lets face it. In my world (I work with animals) its like saying: \"I am proud of my chimp\" - and honestly - chimps are NOT that amazing.

Before working with elephants I worked with chimps (and other primates) for 5 years. People still GAZE at them due to Darwins simplistic idea of humans decending from monkeys.

Even though our DNA is close to chimps - we are not at all along the same lines as chimps. Humans came from \"Homos Erectus\" - a tall, skinny monkey race which died millions of years ago.

Anyway. It seems \"Mr. President\" does share the same line as the chimps.

All I can say about chimps is this:

All chimps have together. Also homosexually. Only thing NOT allowed is mother and son. Dont ask me why. Ask G. W. Bush. Because they have surely breeded some devils spawn along his bloodlines.

U-u-u-u-ahaahhahahaha-ahahaha Chris

Z6
03-21-2003, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Lewis:
\"I am proud of my president\" - he must expect some reaction. I mean lets face it. In my world (I work with animals) its like saying: \"I am proud of my chimp\" ...

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Thanks for that. I needed a good side-splitter.

Thomas_J
03-21-2003, 07:04 AM
I don\'t care what other people think, other people shouldn\'t care what Nick thinks, and in the end nothing should matter. Our opinions are all biased. There is no such thing as an opinion of your own. Whatever you condone is whatever you believe in, and whatever you believe in should be kept to yourself, unless you have the power to influence the situation.

When x billion people marching in demonstrations against war couldn\'t achieve anything, then seriously, what kind of goal are you guys reaching for?

You\'re all wasting your time. Get back to your music.


Thomas

Lewis
03-21-2003, 07:31 AM
What a crapload Thomas. You might aswell just lean back and masturbate. Instead of getting back to your music - you might be a little more proactive.

Its the same as saying. Dont demonstrate. It doesnt matter. Nothing matters. Only my music. My little universe.

Jezzzz... Then again... You are still a young boy Thomas... I was like that too at your age... Ego, ego, me, me...

Love - Chris (MASTURBATE! DONT DEMONSTRATE!)

Thomas_J
03-21-2003, 07:44 AM
I don\'t think I made myself clear.
You shouldn\'t care what I think.

And yes, it was a load of crap images/icons/smile.gif Just like everything in the world of politics.

Thomas

Lewis
03-21-2003, 07:47 AM
Thats not up to you to decide. If that was the case - everything should just stand still - like the world was just frozen.

Its not. Its alive. Vibrant, evil and beautyful at the same time.

Its so DAMN important we state our feelings - and keep on doing so.

Now get back to your music youngster - and let yourself be inspired by the events. I am sure there is drama enough for a cool piece.

Love - Chris

Thomas_J
03-21-2003, 08:12 AM
This is boring.

Thomas

Thomas_J
03-21-2003, 08:19 AM
THIS is interesting/funny:
http://downloads.warprecords.com/bushwhacked2.mov (\"http://downloads.warprecords.com/bushwhacked2.mov\")


Thomas

passacaglia
03-21-2003, 09:08 AM
Wow!!! What a passionate group of folks here!! I frequent a few \'political/philosophical\' forums as well, and i have not witnessed this kind of passion in the other groups, i guess this is due to the nature of how we (musician-types) think and work.

Subcribers of Electronic Musician should read the editor\'s note in the April issue, it is a nice short editorial on the role of musicians/creative folk in times of war.

I have a few personal friends in this thread, and then a few business associates (including a guy i rely on to make good samples). It is a beautiful thing that we are all so unique in culture and perspective, therefore, i keep my self-biased (biased to my cultural experiences and perceptions in my little microcosmos) to myself. I still have bills to pay, a family to feed and a desire to create music to satisfy. The events in the world concern me greatly, but at the same time, i realize there are deep, deep issues that may or may not be hidden from us simpletons. Issues that will probably determine the fate of our world. I just HOPE that the divine force of creativity and novelty will rule or the forces of habit. Isnt it such a wonderful thing that we all have this open discourse, even if we dont agree with each other ? This certainly has an influence on the mass consciousness. Just be thankful of who you are and the gifts you have. Go hug your significant other, give your pet one too. Go look at the sky (even if it is cloudy of bomber jets are flying over) and appreciate the beauty of the limitless boundaries. Oh well, babling ..... just hang in there folks ;-) and put in a copy of Charles Ives\' Universe Symphony and have a beer (or too).

passacaglia

PaPa Chalk
03-21-2003, 09:14 AM
Ok everyone its fine to discuss general topics and opinions in this Area but.... please read our rules again and abide by them we don\'t want to start banning people for name calling swearing vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening language. Do not abuse the use of this section. This could get you permanently banned. If you by chance have a post anywhere in this topic with this type of language we suggest you remove it at this time.
Rules (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000001\")
thank you.

ryounger
03-21-2003, 09:59 AM
\"...a huge website updated many times daily and designed to convey information and provide community. Over a quarter of a million people a week use ZNet. Founded in 1995, ZNet offers information through diverse watch areas and sub-sites, translations, archives, links to other progressive sites, a daily commentary program, and much more. The above link goes to the ZNet top page, and the rest, such as Iraq Watch, antiwar materials, debates, recent links, and much much more is all accessible from there.”

Hey Nick this really sounds like impartial news coverage to me. No wonder your “FACTS” are dubious at best. No wonder you can never show sources. Hey let’s try this one.

SPACE ALIENS ABDUCTED BUSH FAMILY, GEORGE BUSH IS FROM MARS.

Disprove it Nick.

Brilliant as always Nick. By the way, do you think that the moderators have missed your slanderous post about the KKK?

Russ

dougrogers
03-21-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Munsie:
Attention Doug Rodgers, East West:

Obviously Nick is making an out of himself AGAIN. This is not the place for him to use his ego and gain support from those that think he is a sampling GOD, on the contrary, he is losing credibility FAST and has already cost your company at least 1 purchase of Hardcore Bass and QL Strat. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Any opinions expressed by an EASTWEST developer are their own opinions, and have nothing to do with EASTWEST.

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www.soundsonline.com (\"http://www.soundsonline.com\")

Hans Adamson
03-21-2003, 10:43 AM
To all Artists,

It is my belief, that, to be an artist, you have to make your work relevant. If your music is only a \"get-rich-quick\" scheme, or a moment\'s mindless entertainment, fine, disconnect yourself from the world and any human responsibilities. But if you have a special talent, use your clout to fight for the ideals you believe in. For many artists, I believe this would mean: Peace, A fair world order, Equality, True democracy.

Nick is putting his business on the line to fight unselfishly for what he believes in. I support him 100 percent.

Hans

vaultcomplex
03-21-2003, 11:23 AM
I\'m ashamed to live in the same country with someone as grossly naive as you Lewis. And your constant namecalling of people. Are you in 3rd grade?

leaping frog
03-21-2003, 11:24 AM
Ryounger, if it is facts that you need there are truck loads of them i can point you to but if you haven\'t bothered acknowleging them yet, i doubt anything put in front of your face will make a difference.
To still argue that you are ruled by a moral, intelligent president whose priority is to inforce the people\'s democratic rights confirms the fact that you are delusional (i don\'t think you are uneducated/disinformed as are the other category of people supporting the idiot son) Now the third category of people backing GW are the ones that stand to financially benefit from being part of the empire, would you be one of those?

leaping frog
03-21-2003, 11:27 AM
For those of you that want facts I suggest an excellent reading: \"The best democracy money can buy\" by Greg Palast currently on the NY Times best sellers list.
That is, for people open minded enough to question their own preconceived ideas...

vaultcomplex
03-21-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by leaping frog:
Ryounger, if it is facts that you need there are truck loads of them i can point you to but if you haven\'t bothered agknowleging them yet, i doubt anything put in front of your face will make a difference.
To still argue that you are ruled by a moral, intelligent president whose priority is to inforce the people\'s democratic rights confirms the fact that you are delusional (i don\'t think you are uneducated as are the other category of people supporting the idiot son) Now the third category of people backing GW are the ones that stand to financially benefit from being part of the empire, would you be one of those? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Gosh how insulting. Since I support the president, and I don\'t have anything to gain financially, I must either be delusional or an idiot. Thanks for the namecalling. You know, we back up our opionions with FACTS and well thought out reasons; you back up your opinions with whiney insults and unfounded conspiracy theories. How about spitting an actual intelligent opinion, with reasons and solutions relevant to the situation and not spurting out something stupid such as listing the death toll of one demographic from a war that has nothing to do with the current situation with Iraq. Have you even considered contributing to the discussion with your opinion instead of resorting to irrelevant personal attacks?

vaultcomplex
03-21-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by leaping frog:
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Leaping Frog, you misspelled Millennium. Nothing against you, nothing to do with this discussion, just a pet peeve of mine that\'s all.

Russ
03-21-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by dougrogers:
Any opinions expressed by an EASTWEST developer are their own opinions, and have nothing to do with EASTWEST.

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www.soundsonline.com (\"http://www.soundsonline.com\") <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Whether or not you *want* Nick\'s opinions to be his own and not the company\'s, does not matter. Nick\'s opinions, thoughts, derogatory comments, and slanderous remarks are his, but as he represents EASTWEST in these forums the negative view of his actions will reflect upon EW.

Whether or not he intended to act on his own or in conjuction with an EW/QL association is irrelevant. The name Nick Phoenix is associated with EW/QL and the negative views directed towards the man will also be rerouted to a change of opinion of the company. (i.e. if a manager of a branch of bank is known to be prejudiced against blacks and mexicans, those people will stop visiting the bank. Word will spread to their friends that the bank {as a whole} in question is not friendly to minorities. The bank\'s reputation drops because of the actions/beliefs/comments of *one* person in the entire corporation, *regardless* of whether \'his views are not the company\'s views).

Do what you want Nick and Doug -- from here on out I don\'t think a lot of people will be too happy with a representative of EQ/QL labeling people that disagree with the quality of their libraries as KKK members.

ryounger
03-21-2003, 11:52 AM
“The best democracy money can buy”

an excerpt from
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly

Here is a quote from the review.

“This book is essentially a collection of Palast\'s newspaper articles, hastily stitched together with some commentary and exposition. As such, it lacks cohesiveness and the depth his subjects deserve. In addition, Palast\'s bombastic style and one-sided perspective do much to undermine his own credibility. How seriously should readers take a journalist who labels former U.S. Treasury Secretary Larry Summers an \"alien\" and dismisses Wal-Mart shareholders as \"Wal-Martians\"? There is much of value here, but readers who want a full-bodied, serious analysis of how globalization is affecting developing countries or how corporate giants pay for political favors should look elsewhere.”

Looks like a nice work of fiction to me.

Russ

leaping frog
03-21-2003, 11:55 AM
vaultcomplex: unfounded conspiracy theories ?
are you still pretending the electoral vote in Florida was actually accurate?

Do you really know what the bushes pulled off over there?

You might not be an idiot or on the idiot son\'s payroll. You might just be disinformed. But then, an intelligent person would definetly try to verify his sources of information in order to have the clearest picture possible (and please don\'t quote USA Today or FOX as your source images/icons/grin.gif !!!)
I am not trying to insult anyone, just trying to open someone\'s eyes.
This is way too serious and critical of a subject to remain uninvolved. I do think we could end up in a fascist society in the near future if we let this government keep at it unchallenged.
The fact that:
presidency, senate, congress and supreme court are now uniterally controlled put us in a very dangerous position where articles of the constitution can be dumped, altered to support whatever is on the agenda of corporate controlled political parties. I do think that 2 parties are not enough to garantee the safety of our democratic rights (it is too easy to buy/own two parties when you have all the funds of the world to buy people out)
If we had 5 parties, chances are one of them could really express the voices of the people and resist corruption....

Nick Phoenix
03-21-2003, 01:17 PM
VaultComplex,
Sad the way you can\'t defend Bush so you and a few others desperately try to attack my business. That\'s all you can talk about. \"Bad business model.....I\'m never going to buy another QL product....bla bla bla\" Desperate times take desperate measures. I am trying to do something for my country. How about you?

vaultcomplex
03-21-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
VaultComplex,
Sad the way you can\'t defend Bush so you and a few others desperately try to attack my business. That\'s all you can talk about. \"Bad business model.....I\'m never going to buy another QL product....bla bla bla\" Desperate times take desperate measures. I am trying to do something for my country. How about you? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I am doing something for my country by supporting the disarmament of Saddam Hussein and supporting our troops in the Middle East.

vaultcomplex
03-21-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by leaping frog:
Vaultcomplex, so you do think Bush was elected by a majority of americans!!! images/icons/confused.gif images/icons/confused.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif
Your ignorance is coming from a very biased place.
You see only what you want to see.
Tonite, i\'ll post a few facts for you.
I very much doubt your thick mind will ever absorb any of it.

I don\'t hate you for it.


The rate of your evolution is seriously compromised by your segregated approach...

PS: never trust your government, always question it (that statement of yours about trusting your government is sooooooo innocent)


Be well <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">The \"popular vote\" (which by the way is not how electing a president in this country is done, it\'s been done by electoral college for over 200 years.) is a bit more complicated than the simplistic black and white image you seem to attempting to portray. 68,000 votes in New Mexico were not counted due to a computer glitch, where Gore won by only 3 or 4 thousand votes. Supposedly, ballots in California were sent out to illegal aliens. The \"official\" tally of the popular vote isn\'t even accurate because of things like this, especially with Gore\'s \"cheated votes\" in Florida. The popular vote could very well actually be in Bush\'s favor, of course it also might not. That is however irrelevant since the president is, and always has been, elected via electoral college. Just because you don\'t like the result this time around, it doesn\'t mean it\'s wrong. But since you\'re so smart I\'m sure you were completely aware of all of this. After all, I\'m just the ignorant uninformed little \"innocent.\"

Nick Phoenix
03-21-2003, 02:47 PM
Hitler is about to secretly exterminate 6 million people. If I tell someone, it will hurt my business. What should I do?

vaultcomplex
03-21-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Hitler is about to secretly exterminate 6 million people. If I tell someone, it will hurt my business. What should I do? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Jeez, such hostility. You can do whatever you want. I just thought your methods of using your political agenda to promote one of your sample libraries was just a bit tactless. And what\'s with the Hitler comment? Are you implying that the President is Hitler? You should blast some aliens in Halo to vent your frustrations.

images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Nick Phoenix
03-21-2003, 03:39 PM
Vault,
My statement about giving a free library to liberals was tactless and frankly ridiculous. But it certainly wasn\'t promoting anything. The parallels between Hitler and GW are stronger than you think. The UN estimates that more than 100,000 people will die this week. Read the PDF in the Bush lies to congress topic.

Munsie
03-21-2003, 03:59 PM
\"Whether or not you *want* Nick\'s opinions to be his own and not the company\'s, does not matter. Nick\'s opinions, thoughts, derogatory comments, and slanderous remarks are his, but as he represents EASTWEST in these forums the negative view of his actions will reflect upon EW.\"

\"Whether or not he intended to act on his own or in conjuction with an EW/QL association is irrelevant. The name Nick Phoenix is associated with EW/QL and the negative views directed towards the man will also be rerouted to a change of opinion of the company. (i.e. if a manager of a branch of bank is known to be prejudiced against blacks and mexicans, those people will stop visiting the bank. Word will spread to their friends that the bank {as a whole} in question is not friendly to minorities. The bank\'s reputation drops because of the actions/beliefs/comments of *one* person in the entire corporation, *regardless* of whether \'his views are not the company\'s views).\"

\"Do what you want Nick and Doug -- from here on out I don\'t think a lot of people will be too happy with a representative of EQ/QL labeling people that disagree with the quality of their libraries as KKK members.\"

\"Russ is 100% correct, Doug. While your statement may mean something in a legal aspect, it does absolutely nothing to separate Nick\'s actions from East West in any other sense.

Keep in mind that I\'m not here to fight Nick\'s stance against the Bush administration. I\'m not here blasting his libraries, because I own and have enjoyed use of many of them. I am simply trying to help Nick and Doug realize a few key facts. Moving this to the Off Topic forum was a major help. If it were here in the first place, perhaps nothing would have been said at all.\"

\"I agree. I was strongly considering on purchasing QLSO, and I will definitely not purchase it now. I\'m also advising two composer friends of mine not to buy it also. I frankly don\'t care at all what Nick\'s political opinions are, it\'s just the way he tactlessly flaunts them in front of us, his customers. It\'s just insulting and demeaning. I\'m sure he doesn\'t care that he\'s just lost three measely customers, but we\'ll certainly not buy another Quantum Leap product again, especially since the alternatives (VSL, SAM, etc.) are plentiful.\"

I APPLAUD THE ABOVE COMMENTS! I am not as graceful with words as the above users are. Thank you for stating the facts in such a mature professional way.

Doug Rogers,

I hope you realize what Nick is doing to his company and your company as well. And it\'s sad that in his own words \"he doesnt care\".

For the record, what myself and obviously others are complaining about is NOT his right to his political views NOR is it the content of his views. It is his overall disrespect for how he delivers his point of view. I\'m very much ashamed to be a QL customer (in the past). And I\'m sorry if you guys think stating you have over priced products and poor customer support is \"attacking\" your business. Like Nick, we are allowed our opinions. Complaints about QL&EW are very easy to find on this and other forums as well.

lex
03-21-2003, 04:18 PM
Why this attitude people?

Why do you see Nick as a developer only.
Personaly I see Nick as a fellow composer first, and as such I\'m glad that he is part of this forum, and I would allways like too see fellow composers opinions....on politics, on buissnes, art, every day life, people....

And I wouldn\'t care less if he never mentioned his libraries here ever again. If I need info about his products I can allways write to the EastWest and get the info, like I do with any other product that I purchase or I am about too.

What gives you the right to start hiting his work and products, he didnt attack your job, did he?

Look what happened to this forum, Donnie is gonne, Dan Dean is posting once a year, Kirk Hunter twice a year...but on the other hand we got bunch of this great sales representatives with big smiles...all of them saying..\"Hi, we don\'t know, it\'s good, please purchase!\"..
And now you are driving Nick out?? For posting his personal political views in Off Topic section? Half of you couldn\'t compose to save their life...
Hey what about political views of other developers? Those VSL guys are from Austria, and I think I have one library that is from China...ooooh...maybe they share Nicks views so lets not buy their products too!

How about making \"Bush Aproved\" stamp for all the samples whos developers share your political view? That way you can be sure that you are doing \"The Right Thing\" next time you get new samples.

Boycoting samples...don\'t you think we have more then enough treaths, fights and ultimatumes in this sad world of ours allready?

You need more? Your privat ones? It\'s not sad enough?

Composers, are you watching Baghdad tonight? What does go trough your head when you see those pictures?


Alex

A_Sapp
03-21-2003, 04:28 PM
You guys need to watch more TV or somethin.. Sheesh. images/icons/rolleyes.gif This is getting REALLY ridiculous.

You buy sample libraries because of how they sound, not because of how it would benefit the developer.

Why not try to take the political topic impartially rather than blindly remarking, \"I disagree with your opinions, so I\'m not buying your stuff anymore.\" C\'monnnn... images/icons/rolleyes.gif Do you think there is actual genuine hostility expressed here? Are we trying to piss each other off? No, we\'re not. Some opinions are more accentuated than others. Although currently this may be a little touchy due to the current situation in Iraq, let\'s not get ridiculous.

ryounger
03-21-2003, 04:44 PM
“My statement about giving a free library to liberals was tactless and frankly ridiculous.”

Then why do you do it Nick? Like I said, style over substance.

Leaping Frog

“Ryounger thank you for correcting my english, i\'m only fluent in 3 langages and i do make spelling mistakes.”

Where did I correct your English?

“Do you really expect an investigative reporter\' works that shed some light on the dirty dealings of the mighty of our world to be well received by corporate media ?!!!”

I believe that in the US there is a free press. This shouldn’t be confused with impartial press. It is human nature to interpret or color the truth. However, when you include name calling in the mix, then I would have to call bias. Free thinking people separate the truth from the bias. Just because a reporter is not from the US, doesn’t mean that he or she is right.

“To them, he is the enemy that threatens the power they have carved out for themselves.”

And that makes me ask what their agenda is.

“What are you afraid of? That you might actually change your mind?
Be brave, read through 10 pages and make an opinion for YOURSELF. Don\'t count on others to tell you what to read or what to think. Once you read the book (sadly very entertaining)THEN tell me what you think and let\'s discuss it...”

I like fiction as much as the next guy. This is not the fiction that I prefer to read. Sorry.

Russ

PolarBear
03-21-2003, 04:52 PM
Most of you saw \"Bowling for Columbine\", some had a descussion about this already here. You probably read that already, just want to point out one thing.

You don\'t have a intelligent, respectful discussion here. Everybody has a different opinion on a topic, depending on his knowledge. You won\'t turn him into another guy by just posting, you need some facts, which you can\'t bring as you never really know what is fact. Not even if you watch 24 hours a day TV.



Monday, March 17, 2003
A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War


George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call \"the moment of truth,\" the day that \"France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table.\" I\'m glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn\'t sure if I could take much more. So I\'m glad to hear that today is Truth Day, \'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON\'T FIND THEM! Why? \'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don\'t want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here\'s what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won\'t have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let\'s see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What\'s that you say? You don\'t THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don\'t think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn\'t even have this country known as America if it weren\'t for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can\'t get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I\'m guessing there aren\'t a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you \"win\" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn\'t like to see a good *** -whoopin\' every now and then (especially when it \'s some third world *** !). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year\'s election. Of course, that\'s still a long ways away, so we\'ll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you\'ll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com (\"http://www.michaelmoore.com\")
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Simple and in my opinion very powerful. I doubt the president read it.

Hansi

Joris de Man
03-21-2003, 05:44 PM
\'I\'m sure he doesn\'t care that he\'s just lost three measely customers, but we\'ll certainly not buy another Quantum Leap product again, especially since the alternatives (VSL, SAM, etc.) are plentiful.\'

Well god forbid that Maarten or Herb ever speak their mind about the war. Would it cost them any sales if they voice their opinion that Bush is crazy? (if that would be their opinion?)
Would it increase their sales if they vow their support for Bush and Blair?

Yes, Nick could be a lot more tactful, but if anything it goes to show his passion about these issues. Hell, I might not even agree with all the things he said, but why should it influence my buying decision?

Let\'s say a famous movie producer (let\'s take Joel Silver, I\'ve heard he\'s a tough cookie) renowned for his strong opinions and easily flammable personality offers you to score the next Matrix movie. During the spotting session you get to witness some of his outbursts about the political situation that is on his mind. He might say things that you find downright offensive and hey, why not, \'unpatriotic\' (whatever that means).
Do you:
a) thank kindly for the job offer but tell him to stick it where the sun don\'t shine because of his downright slanderous political insults or..
b) decide that despite his unpleasant personality and political bias you would really like the job and the opportunities that come with it? After all, you\'re a professional and somebody\'s race, religion or political interests don\'t affect your abillity to get the job done.

Maybe this comparison is unfair, since I\'d obviously like you to choose B.
And although I could appreciate someone choosing option A for sticking to their principals, I think they would just make it unnecessarily difficult for themselves.
The truth is that the only difference between Nick and VSL or SAM is that Nick has excercised his freedom of speech and said something you obviously didn\'t want to hear.
The guys of SAM and VSL might have the exact same opinions or even stronger ones, or perhaps they think the same way you do. The difference is that you don\'t know their opinions, and so it doesn\'t affect your buying decision.

Lucas
03-21-2003, 05:55 PM
Simple and in my opinion very powerful. I doubt the president read it.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Powerfully stupid in my opinion. Michael Moore begins by saying nobody supports the war and the deal about losing a popularity contest with Saddam. Then he ends by saying he will become popular by winning the war. Go figure. Plus I doubt there is a real fact anywhere in between.

I\'ve seen Michael Moore around and he is extremely loose with the facts and is missing a good number of logic circuits.

It really irks me when I see manufactured rumors and bias trying to be passed of as facts.

Thomas_J
03-21-2003, 06:35 PM
As I\'m reading this topic I\'m getting more and more provoked! I can\'t believe you\'re actually considering not to do business with a person just because he has a strong political view and uses his right to share them with the general public!?!

Madness.

While I personally don\'t want to discuss politics on the internet, I think what you are doing is honorable. If people have something on their mind I don\'t think there\'s anything wrong in expressing it online.

If you think what Nick is doing is wrong, and you post your opinions on this forum, then all you are doing is expressing your own political view! And how does that differ from what Nick is doing? Generally speaking it is the same thing.

I do agree with people that political discussion does not belong on this forum, however people can choose to ignore it.

My previous posts were supposed to hint in this direction but it seems like people need it on a silver spoon...

Boycotting a product simply because you disagree with the guy\'s political view, or his means to bring his thoughts forth is, to say the least, absurd.

That is my opinion.

I\'m famous for making bad analogies, so here goes another one:

It\'d be like boycotting a famous composer you like, just because he has a strong political view and likes to talk to people about it. I think the whole idea is so insane, I can\'t even believe I\'m witnessing this.


Thomas

leaping frog
03-21-2003, 07:02 PM
\"It really irks me when I see manufactured rumors and bias trying to be passed of as facts\"

Lucas, man, you need a break. You probably have been irked (?) non stop for the last 2 years then!! images/icons/wink.gif

Lewis
03-21-2003, 07:15 PM
http://www.abta.org/ (\"http://www.abta.org/\")

I urge a few peps in here to visit this website. They MIGHT be able to help you. No promises.

Love - Chris

Btw. Nick I love you. Dont you give an elephants droppings about these \"empty\" threats of this influencing your business. It wont. I know that all my contacts will react very positive towards your openhearted attitude and be even more supportive. (Scarry thought, huh!?)

John Williams is btw. Love your postings Thomas. Finally - you are involved! Love it!

Love it -

Lucas
03-21-2003, 07:46 PM
Lucas, man, you need a break. You probably have been irked (?) non stop for the last 2 years then!!
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You\'re right Patrick! Too bad I gave up drugs. Any suggestions?

dougrogers
03-21-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Munsie:
And I\'m sorry if you guys think stating you have over priced products and poor customer support is \"attacking\" your business.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well Munsie, if that\'s your opinion about our products and service, why do you ask so many questions about them on the EW/QL forum?

Frankly, I have answered dozens of questions from you on this forum lately, which takes up a lot of my time (poor customer support?). How many other heads of companies personally answer your emails? Your response to Nick\'s opinons (not mine, Nicks!) are simply ridiculous. Nick is not an EASTWEST employee, and he doesn\'t work at EW - we simply distribute his companies products (which most users and reviewers think are pretty good!). He is entitled to express his opinions, whether you agree with them or not in a so called democracy, and you are equally entitled to disagree with them.

I would not dream of trying to muzzle his opinions because someone who didn\'t agree with them threatened to boycott our business. I would rather not have this business!

Peace,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST

leaping frog
03-21-2003, 08:07 PM
You\'re right Patrick! Too bad I gave up drugs. Any suggestions? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">How about a nice glass of french wine??
images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

Lewis
03-21-2003, 08:09 PM
----&gt; Well spoken Doug. If we should be dictated by such chimpansive doctrins - no businessman would ever have a private life - nor a business.

Jezzzzz...

Get laid guys!

Love - Chris

Lucas
03-21-2003, 08:20 PM
How about a nice glass of french wine??
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Not a chance - unless the name gets changed to Freedom Wine. images/icons/wink.gif images/icons/wink.gif

Lewis
03-21-2003, 09:09 PM
Define freedom please. What is freedom? Its a subjective word like peace. What is peace? Its a subjective word like freedom.

Eye of the beholder. You truly need to get drunk to clear your visions.

Love - Chris

PaPa Chalk
03-21-2003, 09:42 PM
A few people in here want to disregard my previous message in this topic. If you are banned you must assume it\'s permanent. If you have broken our rules after this point Sorry. goodbye it was nice to have you here.

Directly from our RULES POLICIES, AND DISCLAIMERS

Please respect others on this site no swearing or name calling of others this could get you banned.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person\'s privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

Nick Phoenix
03-21-2003, 10:10 PM
just checking!

Nick Phoenix
03-21-2003, 10:11 PM

Munsie
03-21-2003, 10:17 PM
Forum Rules:

\"Please respect others on this site no swearing or name calling of others this could get you banned.\"

\"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person\'s privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.\"

-----------

Nick Phoenix - \"So I guess you guys can rejoice and dance the hoochie coochie at your next KKK rally.\"

Nick Phoenix - \"I meant that if the KKK brothers started attacking my libraries unjustly, then maybe it wouldn\'t be any fun anymore to log on to the site.\"

Nick Phoenix - \"George Bush is a lying fanatic and much more dangerous than Saddam Hussein. He is an enemy of the American people and the world.\"

PapaChalk - \"If you have broken our rules after this point Sorry. goodbye it was nice to have you here.\"

I would assume Nick Phoenix should be banned for the above comments.

Nick Phoenix
03-21-2003, 10:21 PM
Now that you have spelled out my worst offences, I think it\'s quite clear that I haven\'t broken any rules. A slight stretch of the truth, perhaps. Still it was very Rush Limbaugh of me to say such things.

PaPa Chalk
03-21-2003, 10:28 PM
Great I\'m getting some of your attention. I\'m assuming munsie you have not received the email I attempted to send to you. Could you please let me know if you received it? If by chance it was not received please email me with the correct address. nsounds@northernsounds.com

Thank you

leaping frog
03-22-2003, 12:22 AM
Ryounger thank you for correcting my english, i\'m only fluent in 3 langages and i do make spelling mistakes.
Do you really expect an investigative reporter\' works that shed some light on the dirty dealings of the mighty of our world to be well received by corporate media ?!!!
To them, he is the enemy that threatens the power they have carved out for themselves.

What are you afraid of? That you might actually change your mind?
Be brave, read through 10 pages and make an opinion for YOURSELF. Don\'t count on others to tell you what to read or what to think. Once you read the book (sadly very entertaining)THEN tell me what you think and let\'s discuss it...

your friend the frog

vaultcomplex
03-22-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by leaping frog:
vaultcomplex: unfounded conspiracy theories ?
are you still pretending the electoral vote in Florida was actually accurate?

Do you really know what the bushes pulled of over there?

You might not be an idiot or on the idiot son\'s payroll. You might just be disinformed. But then, an intelligent person would definetly try to verify his sources of information in order to have the clearest picture possible (and please don\'t quote USA Today or FOX as your source images/icons/grin.gif !!!)
I am not trying to insult anyone, just trying to open someone\'s eyes.
This is way too serious and critical of a subject to remain uninvolved. I do think we could end up in a fascist society in the near future if we let this government keep at it unchallenged.
The fact that:
presidency, senate, congress and supreme court are now uniterally controlled put us in a very dangerous position where articles of the constitution can be dumped, altered to support whatever is on the agenda of corporate controlled political parties. I do think that 2 parties are not enough to garantee the safety of our democratic rights (it is too easy to buy/own two parties when you have all the funds of the world to buy people out)
If we had 5 parties, chances are one of them could really express the voices of the people and resist corruption.... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I don\'t want to get into the Florida vote (which more shows that you are just angry that Bush is president rather than Gore) too much, but I will say that of course I don\'t think the Florida count was accurate. Gore was blatently trying to steal votes by counting votes in his favor that clearly did not vote for either Bush or Gore. It was insulting to see \"look, no one voted for Gore or Bush, that obviously meant they wanted Gore.\" It was so infuriating to see, live on television, people trying to make up what the person \"meant\" when it was clear they didn\'t even vote at all.

Maybe you don\'t like to get your information from unbiased sources such as Reuters or the Associated Press, but I do. I\'m not going to take any stock in blatently OBVIOUS slanted stories. It\'s pretty clear when a report favors one side over the other instead of just reporting news.

Your way of \"opening people\'s eyes\" is pretty juvenile and whiney. Maybe you need to rethink the way you word things.

You speak as if just because the people of the United States voted for a majority of Republicans (which has happenened many times in the past with Republicans AND Democrats) means that all of a sudden the constitution will be dismantled. That is utterly ridiculous and just further proves your disdain for the election results rather than the subject at hand.

I find it interesting that after all this you are STILL resorting to personal attacks (calling Bush an idiot etc. over and over ad nauseum). I\'ll just call you Naive Dumb As A Frog from now on, how\'s that? No, I will not do that because I prefer to intelligently debate topics and express opinions backed up with logic, something you have still failed to do. You throw all these conspiracies out there without offering any kind of logical reasoning behind them. It seems like you are the one who is disinformed.

I\'d pick our current administration, an administration I believe and trust, than your socialist whining any day.

Lance_M
03-22-2003, 12:34 AM
Russ is 100% correct, Doug. While your statement may mean something in a legal aspect, it does absolutely nothing to separate Nick\'s actions from East West in any other sense.

Keep in mind that I\'m not here to fight Nick\'s stance against the Bush administration. I\'m not here blasting his libraries, because I own and have enjoyed use of many of them. I am simply trying to help Nick and Doug realize a few key facts. Moving this to the Off Topic forum was a major help. If it were here in the first place, perhaps nothing would have been said at all.

vaultcomplex
03-22-2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Russ:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by dougrogers:
Any opinions expressed by an EASTWEST developer are their own opinions, and have nothing to do with EASTWEST.

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www.soundsonline.com (\"http://www.soundsonline.com\") <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Whether or not you *want* Nick\'s opinions to be his own and not the company\'s, does not matter. Nick\'s opinions, thoughts, derogatory comments, and slanderous remarks are his, but as he represents EASTWEST in these forums the negative view of his actions will reflect upon EW.

Whether or not he intended to act on his own or in conjuction with an EW/QL association is irrelevant. The name Nick Phoenix is associated with EW/QL and the negative views directed towards the man will also be rerouted to a change of opinion of the company. (i.e. if a manager of a branch of bank is known to be prejudiced against blacks and mexicans, those people will stop visiting the bank. Word will spread to their friends that the bank {as a whole} in question is not friendly to minorities. The bank\'s reputation drops because of the actions/beliefs/comments of *one* person in the entire corporation, *regardless* of whether \'his views are not the company\'s views).

Do what you want Nick and Doug -- from here on out I don\'t think a lot of people will be too happy with a representative of EQ/QL labeling people that disagree with the quality of their libraries as KKK members. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I agree. I was strongly considering on purchasing QLSO, and I will definitely not purchase it now. I\'m also advising two composer friends of mine not to buy it also. I frankly don\'t care at all what Nick\'s political opinions are, it\'s just the way he tactlessly flaunts them in front of us, his customers. It\'s just insulting and demeaning. I\'m sure he doesn\'t care that he\'s just lost three measely customers, but we\'ll certainly not buy another Quantum Leap product again, especially since the alternatives (VSL, SAM, etc.) are plentiful.

leaping frog
03-22-2003, 12:44 AM
Vaultcomplex, so you do think Bush was elected by a majority of americans!!! images/icons/confused.gif images/icons/confused.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif
Your ignorance is coming from a very biased place.
You see only what you want to see.
Tonite, i\'ll post a few facts for you.
I very much doubt your thick mind will ever absorb any of it.

I don\'t hate you for it.


The rate of your evolution is seriously compromised by your segregated approach...

PS: never trust your government, always question it (that statement of yours about trusting your government is sooooooo innocent)


Be well

ed buller
03-22-2003, 11:09 AM
\"I agree. I was strongly considering on purchasing QLSO, and I will definitely not purchase it now. I\'m also advising two composer friends of mine not to buy it also. I frankly don\'t care at all what Nick\'s political opinions are, it\'s just the way he tactlessly flaunts them in front of us, his customers. It\'s just insulting and demeaning. I\'m sure he doesn\'t care that he\'s just lost three measely customers, but we\'ll certainly not buy another Quantum Leap product again, especially since the alternatives (VSL, SAM, etc.) are plentiful.\"

This is just blackmail and you should be ashamed of yourself

Ed images/icons/mad.gif

MDesigner
03-22-2003, 01:25 PM
To all those who are boycotting EastWest\'s products: grow up and try to show a little maturity. Maybe if Nick were acting like Lars Ulrich (ponder a while why Metallica should be boycotted), then I could see boycotting EW products. But as Doug said, Nick is not an employee of EW, and you\'d be hurting Doug by doing this as well.. all because Nick decided to express his opinions in a gung-ho manner. Big whoop. Be an adult, learn to separate someone\'s personal opinion from the products they sell, and move on.

Bruce A. Richardson
03-22-2003, 03:32 PM
I\'m certainly not going to state any more of my political opinions, but I\'ll say this much: I have tried to be very generous in this community and give away whatever knowledge I have for absolutely nothing. Although I don\'t put much stock in user-ratings, I am really disappointed that expressing a political opinion resulted in someone trashing my user rating.

I would never do that to any of you. If I had a problem with you, I would confront you directly. A silly little thing, I know, but it really disappointed me. I like to think that the contributions I make should buy me the latitude to express myself without getting stabbed in the back. Apparently, not.

Bruce A. Richardson
03-22-2003, 03:39 PM
And certainly threatening boycotts, just because Nick wanted to express himself, is ridiculous. If he wants to engage in a little hyperbole, fine. He\'s not hurting anyone doing that. Bush and the right-wing can use a little heat right now. That\'s what keeps our country balanced, lots of people with different ideas, expressing them freely. Trying to hurt the man\'s business is mean spirited and vindictive.

PaPa Chalk
03-22-2003, 04:00 PM
Thanks for responding to our email Munsie. images/icons/smile.gif

here once again everyone is a previous post we had in this topic.

Ok everyone its fine to discuss general topics and opinions in this Area but.... please read our rules again and abide by them we don\'t want to start banning people for name calling swearing vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening language. Do not abuse the use of this section. This could get you permanently banned. If you by chance have a post anywhere in this topic with this type of language we suggest you remove it at this time.
Rules
thank you.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

Simon Ravn
03-22-2003, 05:13 PM
OK I know I am late on this but finally got a chance to catch up a bit on this thread. Now I see Vaultcomplex saying he won\'t buy EWQLSO because of Nick\'s political views. Well I say, Vault\'s loss, not Nick\'s. I think it\'s fair to say that everybody who buys Nick\'s libraries does it for completely selfish reasons and not to make Nick happy and boost his sales:)

Lucas
03-22-2003, 05:17 PM
Certainly Nick has the right to express himself. But I would say just as certainly that anyone who wants to boycott Nick\'s products (I am not) has the right to do so. Shouldn\'t people have the right not to buy something for whatever reason they chose?

ed buller
03-22-2003, 06:03 PM
\"Certainly Nick has the right to express himself. But I would say just as certainly that anyone who wants to boycott Nick\'s products (I am not) has the right to do so. Shouldn\'t people have the right not to buy something for whatever reason they chose?\"

Absolutely , but to persude others not to buy it because you disagree with his politics...?

Obscene : images/icons/frown.gif

Jan
03-22-2003, 06:15 PM
Simon and Ed, please READ what vaultcomplex wrote.

I frankly don\'t care at all what Nick\'s political opinions are, it\'s just the way he tactlessly flaunts them in front of us, his customers. It\'s just insulting and demeaning. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">He stated he did not choose to boycott Nick\'s libraries because of his political views, but because of his demeanor towards customers who do not share his views.
Nick\'s statement where he compared those with an opposing view with KKK-members is not exactly an approach that testifies to a respect for the other\'s way of thinking. And if you are selling your products here, and at the same time insult customers in this way, I\'d say that is not brave, it\'s a dumb thing to do.
And for what, to \'help your country\'? How? You are not going to convince anybody here of your right, you are not going to convert the non believers into believing your gospel.
It\'s just a way of venting pent up frustration, nothing more, nothing less. And when that will cost you several customers, it is a very unwise move, and certainly not as noble as some here seem to think.

vaultcomplex
03-22-2003, 07:05 PM
Thank you Jan for pointing that out. That is exactly right. I\'m all for political debate, but when the namecalling, mean spirited demeanor, and utter disrespect for the opinions of others enters the picture, it ceases being a debate and becomes an insulting attack.

If the sales person started critisizing you, and discounting your opinions, surely you\'d be reluctant to buy whatever he\'s selling.

Ways Nick could have completely avoided this insanely long and hostile thread include making a topic that did not trick people into reading political propaganda with a \"Free Library,\" and presenting his thoughts in a rational and respectful manner.

lex
03-22-2003, 07:34 PM
I\'m sorry, but you are not his customers if he is in the off topic forum....

If you met him on the sreet would you expect to get customer support?

Alex

Bruce A. Richardson
03-22-2003, 09:27 PM
War just brings out the best in everyone, doesn\'t it?

Scott Cairns
03-22-2003, 10:34 PM
I\'m certainly not going to state any more of my political opinions, but I\'ll say this much: I have tried to be very generous in this community and give away whatever knowledge I have for absolutely nothing. Although I don\'t put much stock in user-ratings, I am really disappointed that expressing a political opinion resulted in someone trashing my user rating.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Bruce, FWIW, I just went and gave you a 5 star rating cause I very much DO appreciate your advice and expertise.

Please keep up the good work and don\'t let a select few stop you from contributing. I think it would be a great loss to the Northern SOunds community.

Regards, Scott.

Vlacarus
03-22-2003, 11:10 PM
I think we should all shut up. No one is going to change anyone\'s mind or change ANYTHING for that matter.

Whether you like it or not, we have young men over there fighting for the safety of our country\'s and the world\'s future. I think all differences should be put a side to support them in this extremely difficult time.

Just a note...
The majority of the U.S supports Bush and his decision to liberate Iraq...like it or not, that\'s the truth. And I can assume that\'s why half of the protestors are upset. They are the minority.

Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion. But the tactics in this thread are pitiful & shameful. Name calling, bribery, etc...

Let me put it this way. This thread (opinion) is allowed to exist because of the way America is.
So don\'t knock it! You should be proud and feel lucky.

Good Night!

leaping frog
03-23-2003, 12:35 AM
Bruce, this grey star is actually something you should be proud of, your Purple cross. Like a battle scar, something you got for speaking up. It seems that speaking the Truth always gets you killed, maimed or discredited.
And whoever, please stop pretending that attacking a thirld world country of 20 million starving people, located thousands of miles away from the US and that has no significant military power and no means of standing up to the fight is actually done to defend yourself. At least be honest enough to call agression by its name.
The horror of 9/11 is currently being applied to ten of thousands of innocent people.
We are no different than our enemies if we keep using the same methods on a larger scale.
The fact that this war so far has been such a walk in the park confirms the fact that Irak was no major threat to start with.
When the US lost Russia as its nemesis it had to create a new one. Once Irak goes down, who\'s next? Iran? (that just got \"mistakinly\" bombed today by precision missiles) then north Korea ?
Do you think this does anything for global demilitarisation?
Do you think this is going to reduce weapons of mass destruction production ( USA next year\'s war budget is higher than ALL other nations\' COMBINED)
I can guarentee you that right now China, Russia and all nations that have the means to do so are stepping up their military expenses. Within the next ten years the nations with nuclear weapons will be all over. Being the biggest kid on the block will mean nothing since the smaller kids will have guns too and they will hate your guts.
What will you do then?
Pray to the Lord that someone that truly follows God\'s principles comes to our rescue after this mess.
It\'s gonna take a miracle to save us from what may come.

Phattlippz
03-23-2003, 03:11 AM
Is it possible that what we\'re seeing happen in this thread is a microcosm of what is happening globally? Is it true that when we believe that our particular viewpoint is the truth, we often--without thinking--give ourselves permission to attack those with differing viewpoints in a way that in itself is really destructive and possibly in opposition to what our belief is? If the extreme manifestatiion of this behavior is the destruction of life--is this behavior something to be avoided?

Just wondering...

Nick Phoenix
03-23-2003, 03:12 AM
Lots of good comments and I have to admit that the war has made me angry. Maybe someone has mentioned this: What about the North Korea threat? Next thing you know, we\'ll be drobbing billions into Rumsfeld\'s and Cheney\'s buddies pockets, to fix up the Star Wars mess, to purportedly shield us from Korean missiles. All because we threatened them in the first place. I am actually very aware how difficult it is to change peoples minds. The first step is to plant seeds. That\'s what I am doing in my own way. Most of the American public supports the war, and the rest of the world thinks you\'re all nuts. Did any of you war supporters read the BUSH LIED TO CONGRESS pdf? comments????? Please no more useless blanket statements. I deal with facts only. What about the central claim that Iraq was trying to buy radioactive material from Niger. This was a confirmed outright lie that came from an undisclosed source in 2000. The CIA confirmed it was untrue in 2000 and yet the US used that as the central point in their case before the American public, against Iraq, knowing it was a lie. That\'s enough for me, or any court to convict the government of willfully deceiving the American people. Case closed! There is no argument. It\'s all fact. Read the document. So you see I am here barking like a rabid dog for a reason. Most of you have never heard this before, because we have lost our media. Someone has to spread the word. By the way, did anyone else notice that the first thing Bush mentioned in his speech to Iraq was don\'t set the oil wells on fire, and the first thing we did was capture and secure the oil fields???????????? -Must be the environmentalist in him. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Hans Adamson
03-23-2003, 11:23 AM
Don\'t miss this. You won\'t see it on the TV-news.

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/pdfs/pdf_inves/pdf_admin_iraq_nuclear_evidence_march_17_let.pdf (\"http://www.house.gov/reform/min/pdfs/pdf_inves/pdf_admin_iraq_nuclear_evidence_march_17_let.pdf\")

Hans

Nick Phoenix
03-23-2003, 02:07 PM
Vlacarus,
I wish it were true and hopefully people will benefit from the departure of Hussein. The record has proven, however, that the US government is only interested in it\'s own agenda and doesn\'t have the guts to admit what that is. Have you seen any reports about how we are helping the people of Afghanistan? We are actually spending all of our money on keeping a strong security force to shield the building of the pipeline. Bush wouldn\'t even sign a measly bill to give the tortured women of Afghanistan 4 million to help build schools for women. That\'s how sick he is.

Don\'t forget, Clinton attacked in Bosnia and gained support by claiming there were mass graves. We have never seen any complete pictures of this. It might be true, but I assume it is untrue until I see proof. Many G.I.\'s have reported that this was a lie. Besides, you can be sure that if they had found mass graves, someone would have taken a picture.
Propaganda is alive and well in the US.

Vlacarus
03-23-2003, 02:24 PM
here I go...sucked in! I promised I wouldn\'t let myself get caught up in this.

\"The record has proven, however, that the US government is only interested in it\'s own agenda and doesn\'t have the guts to admit what that is\"-N.Pheonix

Ok that being said, if the Gov\'t isn\'t admitting what it\'s so called agenda is, how can we sit here and debate what we don\'t know?

\"We are actually spending all of our money on keeping a strong security force to shield the building of the pipeline. \"-N.Pheonix

-All of our money??, c\'mon. Why are we against building a pipeline, do you know or are you speculating?

\"Bush wouldn\'t even sign a measly bill to give the tortured women of Afghanistan 4 million to help build schools for women. That\'s how sick he is.\"-N.Pheonix

Do you know why he wouldn\'t? Do you know all the circumstances surrounding the signing of the bill? or again...are you speculating?

And why is it, every time I post in a debate, one of my points gets addressed and the other many are ignored? 5 were just mentioned... ONE was addressed.

Lucas
03-23-2003, 02:48 PM
Did any of you war supporters read the BUSH LIED TO CONGRESS pdf? comments????? Please no more useless blanket statements. I deal with facts only. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">
By the way, did anyone else notice that the first thing Bush mentioned in his speech to Iraq was don\'t set the oil wells on fire <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Nick, I don\'t doubt your sincerity, just your evaluation of the facts. The reference to the oil wells was not the first thing he mentioned. You apparently missed the parts where he said do not harm the Iraqi people and do not use weapons of mass destruction.

You can an entirely different picture by being selective with \"facts\". It\'s obvious that you think Bush has no regard for the Iraqi people. But this is not borne out when you look at how the coalition has dropped leaflets to the Iraqi citizens on how to stay out of harm\'s way and even how the soldiers can avoid danger. All their actions point to regime change.

But of course, the comment about the oil wells was the one important to you. I have never quite been able to grasp the idea that this was a war for oil, never made any sense to me. Can someone explain it to me logically? I\'m not being goofy here, I really want to know. I mean REALLY, not just that Iraq has a lot of oil so Bush wants it. Give me something I can think with.
Lucas

MDesigner
03-23-2003, 03:04 PM
Lucas,

Do a google search for keywords like: euro dollar oil iraq

Basically, Baghdad has switched to the Euro for trading oil, and Bush doesn\'t like this because it will hurt the dollar supposedly.

There are a lot more details.. look around on the web, I found several articles discussing this.

Z6
03-23-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Vlacarus:

Ok, done \"=) ...for good <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, praise Our Lord Tony Blair for that. I can hardly remember seeing so much drivel packed into such a small space.

It seems that the odd Iraqi or two has taken exception to our \'altruistic gestures\' (not \'bullying really\') and are fighting in the cities \'already taken\'.

I\'d rather see the Iraqis surrender. I\'d rather see loss of life curtailed. But when murdering hordes invade a country, sometimes the people fight back. Weird?

This is in small towns with a few thousand people. If this is repeated in Baghdad the carnage could be endless, and the \'invasion\' could go on and on. Idiot US and British leaders have led their armies and citizens to believe this would all just be a happy few days holiday; now comes the death.

In guerilla street fighting, the fifty-year technological advantage and the 200 billion-dollar \'edge\' becomes less meaningful.

Did it really never occur to them that their victims might fight back? Did they really believe, as does our erstwhile friend above, that their killing spree would be welcomed?

Saddam may be the biggest lump of turd ever to slither on this earth, but he is an intellectual giant compared to \'coalition leaders\'. Their stupidity is being paid for with the blood of others.

So, all you great guys, you freedom lovers, you right-thinking, brave unflinching heroes, supporters of the boys, doers of what\'s right, of what must be done for the good of mankind who think this is such a swell thing WE\'re doing for these poor Iraqis; what do WE do if they turn the place into a modern Leningrad?

Do we nuke it? Why, I\'ll bet they\'d be slapping our backs and drinking toasts to us for years and years if we did that. What about chemical or biological weapons? At least we\'d still have the buildings, and after all, if WE use those weapons it\'s not the same as some filthy wog country with a towel on its head using them is it? It would be to end the war after all, and that\'s what we all want isn\'t it? It\'s okay for us to nuke a few cities as long as we\'re absolutely sure we\'re doing the right thing, no? There must be a precedent somewhere for the good guys ending a war by dropping nukes?

Maybe we could use some of those huge Big Buster bombs they tested recently - 10 tons of fun-filled freedom (of course \'Buster\' isn\'t their real name - it\'s probably \'Liberator\', or \'Peace Spreader\', or something else more in line with our good works): the biggest non-nuclear bomb ever tested. It\'s not a weapon of mass destruction, maybe just minor destruction?

Hell, why not just kill all of them, then we can start from scratch? Then we\'d really be setting them free. Whadya say guys? We could send over settlers, you know, a few Amish, some New Yorkers, a couple of buses from the deep south, maybe two or three cockneys and a some chirpy Liverpudlians to keep their peckers up? This \'war\' never was about oil, so we could put all the oil proceeds into a charity of Rumsfeld\'s choosing (whoops, we\'re already doing that - sorry). If any \'natives\' managed to survive, we could build a little reservation for them, and if they got uppity we could bulldoze their buildings. They\'d be hap hap happy cause they\'d be livin in the free world after all.

dougrogers
03-23-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Although I don\'t put much stock in user-ratings, I am really disappointed that expressing a political opinion resulted in someone trashing my user rating.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Join the club, Bruce - I had mine stripped also - and I didn\'t even get involved in the debate (except by association)! I have now changed my user preference to get rid of this tool of revenge.

It\'s good to see democracy is still alive and well images/icons/mad.gif

PaPa Chalk - you should investigate this to see if a single individual is abusing the system. I find this more offensive that profanity, especially when they are allowed to remain anonymous.

Peace,

Doug Rogers
-------------------
EASTWEST
www.soundsonline.com (\"http://www.soundsonline.com\")

Bill
03-23-2003, 03:35 PM
&gt; Baghdad has switched to the Euro for trading oil

That’s because France is the major Oil for Food contractor. Which is why France has been opposed to any change in the status quo in regard to Iraq.

Joris de Man
03-23-2003, 03:49 PM
&gt;Can someone explain it to me logically? I\'m not &gt;being goofy here, I really want to know. I mean &gt;REALLY, not just that Iraq has a lot of oil so &gt;Bush wants it. Give me something I can think &gt;with.
&gt;Lucas

http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/primer1.htm#1 (\"http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/primer1.htm#1\")

Came across this while searching for some answers myself.

Z6
03-23-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Lucas:
[QUOTE] ...You apparently missed the parts where he said do not harm the Iraqi people and do not use weapons of mass destruction...

... look at how the coalition has dropped leaflets to the Iraqi citizens on how to stay out of harm\'s way and even how the soldiers can avoid danger....

...I have never quite been able to grasp the idea that this was a war for oil, ...I\'m not being goofy here, I really want to know. I mean REALLY, not just that Iraq has a lot of oil so Bush wants it. Lucas <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Give me something I can think with .


Lucas, I\'m not being goofy here, but you could try a brain. They come in pretty handy when thinking\'s required. Or, I could just italicize one of your own sentences, and maybe even without a brain you could grasp it: Iraq has a lot of oil so Bush wants it.

I must say though, I didn\'t know about the leaflets. This has completely changed my whole perception. If I had known that they\'d dropped leaflets telling the people they were about to bomb how to avoid those bombs I would never have been against this war.

On the \'oil\' point, have a look at Beckers\' posts. Or, you could use that spanking new brain I\'m sure you are about to procure and you could apply it to the problem toot sweet!

Your new brain will likely tell you that oil is, in fact, a factor, one of many, but important enough, in itself, to kill for. Not only that, but that the fact that Bush wants it might even, in itself, be enough - cooky, no?

There\'s more to this than oil, but oil would be enough. I doubt the reasons matter much to the dead and injured.

Lucas
03-23-2003, 04:27 PM
Z6 - I won\'t take your \"brain\" comment too seriously because I\'m apparently talking to a parrot. It\'s easy to spout off slogans.

Joris - thank you for the reference. I will check it out.

Bill
03-23-2003, 05:06 PM
Lucas

If you want a more balanced view, I recoment Ken Pollack\'s \"A Threatening Storm\".

Beckers
03-23-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Vlacarus:

And for those who are confused...our American foreign policy is not to American-ize other countries. It is to help other suppressed countries see and reap the benefits of being a free nation. Yes, in a way it is selfish but not bully-ish. We, the world and all free nations will benefit as a whole every time a tyrant like Saddam is thrown out of power.

Ok, done \"=) ...for good <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">So you think that Richard Perle sat down with Rumsfeld and Cheyney just to figure out a way to help suppressed countries.

As a matter of interest, when you voted for Bush, did you know he was going to implement the policies advocated in Perle\'s \"Rebuilding America\'s Defences\". Was it in the manifesto?

I mean, I\'d like to know who to hold to account for the mess that\'s coming as a result of it: just the administration or also the American people?

Z6
03-23-2003, 06:51 PM
Lucas, I expect you thought my post was pretty rude. You wanted a logical explanation of why this slaughter might be about oil, and all I did was give you cheek instead of directing you to a learned tome that might enlighten you as to why many people believe that oil is important here?

Unfortunately, it seemed to me that if your powers of logic could conclude that the dropping of leaflets before bombs, and a directive to Saddam not to hurt his people, was evidence that Bush does have regard for the Iraqi people then you posed an impossible task. You expect too much, not just of yourself but of logic itself.

I reckon that blowing up women and children is pretty rude. I reckon it\'s rude for people to sit around like armchair Winston Churchills talking about the inevitable \'big picture\' while tacitly supporting murder. Passing links around so that we might be sure we believe what we believe. So that we know we have considered it deeply; have weighed the pros and the cons and have regretfully had to accept the \'facts\'.

I keep seeing all these posts asking for \'facts\', as if it were a reasoned and reasonable request. The facts would then be seriously digested and a serious conclusion reached. None of this crazy ranting about murder and death and bits of children flying around all over the place is necessary with reasonable, logical people.

Suddenly, everybody\'s a bloody a tophole researcher and nothing is proven without \'facts\'. You yourself seemed to believe that Bush\'s speech contained some \'facts\' missing from Nick\'s post that proved Bush is not some monster who would just murder anyone, or at least murder without \'good cause\'. What good are facts then? How many articles do you have to read to discover that reading a leaflet before a bomb drops on you is the same thing as not reading a leaflet before a bomb drops on you?

As an example of what I\'m parroting about; I watched a news report today where reporters were \'taken\' to an Iraqi hospital to see children with various pieces of their anatomy missing. (I don\'t know if they read the leaflets or not.) But the reporter was quick to point out that he (the reporter) hadn\'t \'confirmed\' that the children were injured in coalition attacks - he didn\'t have all the \'facts\'.

Perhaps the Iraqi authorities had lobbed the bits off themselves because the many thousands of bombs and missiles had failed to actually hurt anyone because those leaflets had been so effective? Perhaps the little mites got hurt in a car crash. Who knows?

What was important was that now the fighting has begun it is the reporter\'s job to make sure that he\'s not taking the enemy\'s side. That he doesn\'t undermine our jolly boys in arms by suggesting that they may be responsible for maiming children when what they are actually doing is freeing people.

Public opinion in the UK is turning toward war. Young men are out there dying (mostly from the highly-targeted friendly fire of US soldiers). It seems almost a disgrace not to support them.

But I don\'t. And neither do 99% of the people who say they do. The UK and the US is full of ex-soldiers who get treated like crap by the same people who supposedly support them while the fighting and the dying is going on.

Bush is doing this for god-knows-what. Blair is doing it for his conscience - he believes. The most important commodity in the world is worth dying for surely - as long as it\'s other people dying, that is.

It\'s not all that complicated. Logic is useless in world affairs and politics.

In the aftermath of this war, if we try coalition soldiers for their crimes we will have taken a great leap forward. If we can somehow create a situation where soldiers must, as much as Blair, look to their own consciences before the killing then something good might come of it. But I doubt this will happen.

But then I\'m a loony, I don\'t try to convince with \'facts\'. I\'m crazy, I believe that what is going on is the moral equivalent of the attempt to commit genocide on the jews or the Israeli attempt to wipe out Palestinians. There any number of atrocities to cite; thousands in history and many going on right now.

It wouldn\'t change the \'fact\' that mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and daughters and sons are suffering, dying, while the politicians spout on and on and on without so much as a bloody nose to make them re-think their positions. And great numbers of our populations are talking about \'weapons of mass destruction\' and a bad man in the East as if they knew what they were talking about. As if they knew \'the facts\'.

vaultcomplex
03-23-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Z6:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Vlacarus:

Ok, done \"=) ...for good <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, praise Our Lord Tony Blair for that. I can hardly remember seeing so much drivel packed into such a small space.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Apparently, you haven\'t read your own posts.

Z6
03-23-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by vaultcomplex:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Z6:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Vlacarus:

Ok, done \"=) ...for good <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, praise Our Lord Tony Blair for that. I can hardly remember seeing so much drivel packed into such a small space.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Apparently, you haven\'t read your own posts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hey Vault, take it easy on me with that wit will you? I\'m only human.

I take it you found your Mojo?

vaultcomplex
03-23-2003, 07:07 PM
I\'d rather see some Z6 vs. Donnie posts. Those were much more fun.

Lucas
03-23-2003, 10:49 PM
Z, you confuse me. First you tell me to \"try a brain\", then you tell me forget the facts and that \"logic is useless in world affairs and politics\". I guess the only yardstick left is to rely on your good sense, Z, your understanding and TRUTH, which you have somehow absorbed without the use of facts, reason or logic.


How many articles do you have to read to discover that reading a leaflet before a bomb drops on you is the same thing as not reading a leaflet before a bomb drops on you?
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It seems to me that someone might read the leaflet, follow the instructions, and not get a bomb dropped on them. But I guess that must be beyond the realm of possibility.

George Bush is a murderous monster, the equivalent of Hitler. Nevermind the leaflets. Nevermind that the job could have been finished 12 years ago when it was already well on the way. Nevermind that the cost of the war will far, far exceed any possible oil revenues for a long time to come. And of course, nevermind the impossibility that this was has anything to do with protection of people and nations.

It\'s not up to us mere mortals to digest facts and employ logic. Z has decreed it and it must be so.

Nick Batzdorf
03-23-2003, 11:35 PM
I\'m going to buy a Dixie Chicks album, and I\'m not particularly interested in listening to it.

Munsie
03-23-2003, 11:47 PM
\"PaPa Chalk - you should investigate this to see if a single individual is abusing the system. I find this more offensive that profanity, especially when they are allowed to remain anonymous.\"

I think the star rating system should be 100% public for all to see. Some kind of global list that displays all forum members sorted by username, and then their votes along with who voted for them. I see no reason at all to hide who rated who.

Nick Batzdorf
03-24-2003, 12:14 AM
Vaultcomplex wrote:


First off, you mention more people are against the war, but all the recent polls show that a clear majority approve of the war. USA Today recently reported that 76% approve of the engagement in Iraq. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s what\'s particularly depressing to me. As soon as a war starts - in any country, at any time, regardless of how irrational the justification is - the majority of the country\'s public supports it. Rational thought goes out the window.


\'m all for political debate, but when the namecalling, mean spirited demeanor, and utter disrespect for the opinions of others enters the picture, it ceases being a debate and becomes an insulting attack.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">The problem is that some opinions are simply impossible to respect. How can one have a polite, scholarly debate against an insane point of view that is at the root of people getting killed?

If my daughter got killed by \"collateral damage,\" how could there be *any* justification for it? Well, peoples\' daughters have or surely will get killed.

That comes way before one even begins to discuss the \"logic\" about the world being safer at the end of this.

Even though I agree with pretty much everything he says, I was really sick of Michael Moore when he was backing Ralph Nader (who could have prevented all this from happening if he hadn\'t had such a huge ego). But after tonight at the Oscars I like him again.

MDesigner
03-24-2003, 12:27 AM
Thanks, Hans. Nick actually posted a link in another thread, but people just blew it off as BS.

I found this pretty informative though, as someone who has not really kept too much up to date with the real reasons we\'re going to war.

Vlacarus
03-24-2003, 12:46 AM
I don\'t know how much coverage anyone has watched of this conflict so far or even of the \'91 war. Are any of you people missing the footage of the Iraqi people cheering for the coalition forces. Even footage from and before the 91 war (not shown at the time of battle) shows the innocent Iraqi citizens (Kurds, Shiites, what have you) fleeing north out of Iraq, crying in despair to the American cameras saying \"Why is he doing this to us...we are humans just like you? Please please help?\" Does this not phase anyone?

One more thing...most who oppose the war whine about loss of life,(which i agree, is no joke). I want to ask, where were all of you for the past 2 decades when the Mukhabarat was killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. No one was standing up for the innocent then?

N.Pheonix-\"did anyone else notice that the first thing Bush mentioned in his speech to Iraq was don\'t set the oil wells on fire, and the first thing we did was capture and secure the oil fields???????????? -Must be the environmentalist in him.\"

Reason = the money made from the oil fields is rightfully Iraq\'s and will be used to help the Iraqis reform their country. I can\'t understand why people can\'t see that this war is not about the darn oil.

Grant it, we all don\'t know everything and even those who say they have all the facts, really don\'t. No one knows. You can only base your very well calculated and fact supported opinion on what you know and since none of us know everything about everything, I think our opinions fall very short of being credible life/mind altering points.

What is going on right now, needs to happen. Whether it is done by this administration now or with another 10 years from now after Saddam has invaded and occupied neighboring countries and has built up his WMD arsenal so much, that even a threat of a U.S. led coalition against him, would make him level the middle east if not more in one fell swoop. In my \'opinion\' (heh) I\'d rather have it done now, where loss of life, even though possibly in the many thousands, is considerably less.

And for those who are confused...our American foreign policy is not to American-ize other countries. It is to help other suppressed countries see and reap the benefits of being a free nation. Yes, in a way it is selfish but not bully-ish. We, the world and all free nations will benefit as a whole every time a tyrant like Saddam is thrown out of power.

Ok, done \"=) ...for good

Vlacarus
03-24-2003, 12:48 AM
\"Grant it, we all don\'t know everything and even those who say they have all the facts, really don\'t. No one knows. You can only base your very well calculated and fact supported opinion on what you know and since none of us know everything about everything, I think our opinions fall very short of being credible life/mind altering points.\"

After i say this in my previous post, I proceed to throw my opinion at you....haha what a hipocrite I am! Isn\'t life grand =)

Jamesmcwilliams
03-24-2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Hitler is about to secretly exterminate 6 million people. If I tell someone, it will hurt my business. What should I do? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes, well... there were lots of people who wanted to leave Hitler alone and try and use the democratic route (there were anti-war demonstrations at the beginning of WW2)...The fact is that WW2 wouldn\'t have happened if hitler was kicked into line as soon as he started breaking treaties. (instead of dilly-dallying around trying to talk him down). Now by saying that, I am not suggesting we attack everything as soon as possible... but I am suggesting that sometimes you need to cut out the cancer before it propagates.

Personally, I think Saddam deserves everything that is coming to him. As much as I would love to believe that you can solve everything through talking... it\'s simply not a realistic option.

Saddam has been given too many chances, and he makes a mug out of the UN.

I read on this forum someone calling the coalition \"murderous\"...

The coalition is trying as hard as possible to avoid civilian (and even iraqi military) deaths, and in doing so, are suffering many more casualties than they would normally.
It was the Iraqi republican guard who has been murdering thier own troops as they try and surrender.

war is not a black and white affair... It\'s akin to a hostage situation - Where an entry team will assault in an attempt to save ALL the hostages...but it\'s such a difficult situation that some hostages can die. To the layman who see\'s it on the news, they often regard it as a failure because hostages were lost... yet they don\'t realise just how much worse it would have been.

Saddam has been murdering people almost all his life.... Please... explain to me with all your wisdom, how you think he should be stopped without military action? You really think he wants to give up all those snug presidential palaces?

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

SUPEROLAND
03-24-2003, 06:49 AM
Hi !

I\'m really sorry and apologize for my poor english.

After reading all those posts, I have this feeling that we are all becoming... mad...

War effect...

I\'m french. I\'m very very sad, medias have presented us the way you all know.

I can tell you this : I love american people and by extent human race. I really do. I feel you are all my brothers. We are all brothers living on the same planet.

You see, I cried on the september 11th. I thought of all the people who died in that hell,

and all of my wonderful summer family I had lived with in Alabany and who felt very shocked as we did.

My 3 young kids were shocked...

YES, I do believe terrorism must be stopped.
Saddam Hussein is a tyrant. No doubt. Like some others. How can we, could we stop him ?
I don\'t know... I really don\'t...

YES, I really think of the boys fighting there.
I will never flame them... Poor young men....
Of course , they need to be supported.
They give their lives. For a good for a bad reason, we don\'t know... But they do it !

The problem is that US + GB decided (we honestly know that) to declare war, against ONU decision.

I don\'t mean ONU was right to be against war.

But you see, when RIGHT disappear, comes fear, terror and tears. And I repeat again, I really agree ONU shouldn\'t let tyrant persecute their people.

France was against war. Were we right ? I don\'t know. May be some terrific weapons will be found in Irak that will prove Bush was right, may be not.

But you see, I was very very sad and shocked the way medias (murdoch medias, near Bush) have treated us. France and french people.

YES, we are a small country with almost no weapons. Yes, we often have many ideas and often have few actions...
Yes, without you, without your help, without the lives your children gave in 1943-44-45, my brothers, Europe would be hell... A europe.

And a century will never be enough to thank you, you US, Britain, Candian people who gave their lives to rescue us.

Yes, I think (I\'m not sure) we have oil interests in Irak. But may be US will someday have (who can says)...

But, because, we (US+GB / France) couldn\'t agree on the time to go to war in Iraq, then we had become &\"\'\"\'*=)=.

French products shouldn\'t be baught anymore. French wine or french fries ? NOOO !!! Freedom wine or freedom fries... and so on...

I can tell you that, we WILL never do that with you, my brothers.

ME ? I will keep on buying american, english products.

I will keep on saying that you are GREAT people, a great nation, a \"big hearted people\".

I will keep on believing we all go over the same way. We, human people.

I just want to add that I really believe that BUSH is very talented : in a few weeks he and his team succedeed in introducing \"intolerance not to say a bit of hate\" in many people head.

Nick Phoenix just expressed his opinions.

Is he right or wrong ?

I don\'t know. Each one has his point of view and idea about that. And can express it. If, of course, it doesn\'t go beyond moral and ethic. That\'s what , I guess, we call freedom.

But more than that, we can, we should welcome and try to understand each point of view, unstead of shooting down in flames what\'s unexpected or seems outragous.

That can help us to understand how and why we are different and what we can bring each other to become better. More human....

Instead of insulting and threatening each other by medias and commercial means.

With all my very BEST REGARDS to you,

Arnaud Zeller. France.


And tonight, I will drink my glass of french wine with my hamburger... And that will be great !

SUPEROLAND
03-24-2003, 06:54 AM
This is why I cry today and feel very sad...

http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/etranger/20030324.OBS8508.html# (\"http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/etranger/20030324.OBS8508.html#\")

Poor youg men and women...

I think and pray for you and all of your families involved in that war...

Best regards,

Arnaud. Z.

SUPEROLAND
03-24-2003, 06:57 AM
This is why I cry today and feel very sad...

http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/etranger/20030324.OBS8508.html# (\"http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/etranger/20030324.OBS8508.html#\")

Poor youg men and women...

I think and pray for you and all of your families involved in that war...

Best regards,

Arnaud. Z.

Beckers
03-24-2003, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:
[QUOTE]
Saddam has been murdering people almost all his life.... Please... explain to me with all your wisdom, how you think he should be stopped without military action? You really think he wants to give up all those snug presidential palaces?

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">This military action is not intended for the benefit of Iraqis. More Iraqi death and misery has occurred as a result of the sanctions than Saddam, yet they were kept in place.

Saddams persecution of Iraqis has been exclusively aimed at suspected dissenters. Apart from this Iraqis led a high quality of life before the sanctions (unlike Afghans under the Taliban). The Kurds and Shi\'ites were particularly badly persecuted en masse, but this was largely halted by the containment policy. For the past ten years Saddam\'s brutality towards his own citizens has been little worse than that of regimes in other Arab countries, N.Korea (huge death toll), Zimbabwe.

I have no answer to your question, except that the answer of military action is the answer to the wrong question.

If tyranny is a disease, the \"treatment\" would have to be assessed for its benefits against the side effects:

Sanctions: side effects massively outweighed the benefits (a high ranking UN officer resigned over this. I forget his name).

Containment and inspections: palliative, not a cure, but benefits outweighed side effects (even though the necessary Western presence on Arab soil helped provoke 9/11). Thsi was working -The inspectors were thrown out because of suspected spying, since verified.

Current military action: would never get FDA approval, as there is a high risk of the treatment killing the patient, doctor and nurse sooner or later.

Many diseases are incurable. One possible treatment offering a slim chance for the disease in Iraq might be aided insurrection from within. But then Bush, Cheyney, Rumsfeld and Perle would not be able to achieve their war aims.

Jamesmcwilliams
03-24-2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by Beckers:
[QUOTE]
[qb] [QUOTE]

Many diseases are incurable. One possible treatment offering a slim chance for the disease in Iraq might be aided insurrection from within. But then Bush, Cheyney, Rumsfeld and Perle would not be able to achieve their war aims. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">There would plenty of killing if that happened, the only difference would be that none of our soldiers would be included in the casualty list.

... So you think that it\'s okay for Saddam to kill his own people if they disagree with his politics/riegn?

Just because N Korea also acts like Iraq means we should ignore Iraq?

Maybe if Saddam spent more money on the people and less on palaces, they wouldn\'t be so poor.

The only iraqi\'s who will lose out in the end are the ones who thrive on Saddams regime...they are the ones who are fighting, and shooting the iraqi soldiers who don\'t want to.

But in the end... I think a line from starwars sums it up...
\"many of the beliefs we hold true depend on a certain point of view\" images/icons/wink.gif

Beckers
03-24-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:

... So you think that it\'s okay for Saddam to kill his own people if they disagree with his politics/riegn?

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">No. (What. -did you think I was going to say yes?) I am saying that the military action is likely to cause problems that are even worse that Saddam torturing and killing dissenters.

There are bound to be killings in a forced regime change and you would weigh that up against the benefits to the population (not the benefits to a third party).

I fear the outfall from a Western invasion of an Arab state. This is deeply offensive to Arabs everywhere. Support for Al-Qaeda will sky rocket, producing a massive stimulus for frequent major terrorist attacks world wide, especially agains the US and UK. This may becaome part of every day life in the West for decades.

Iraq itself is a complex admixture of sects, races and tribes. In the post Saddam era this will rapidly become a home and a breeding ground for radical groups who only know violence, not least al-Qaeda and the Baath party.

You only need to see the pictures of furious Jordanian Arabs screaming they were now \"for Bin Laden\", the zeal of Iraqis working across the border rushing back into Iraq to repel the Americans, the large civilian armed mobs hunting down a possible bailed-out US pilot, to know that any gratitude and goodwill towards an occupying Western power maybe rather thin. Of course the Kurds and Shi\'ites will rejoice -for now.

Jamesmcwilliams
03-24-2003, 11:02 AM
hmmm, interesting points... time will tell.

Bill
03-24-2003, 11:50 AM
&gt; Saddams persecution of Iraqis has been
&gt; exclusively aimed at suspected dissenters

As Saddam is a self proclaimed protégé of Stalin, this includes the whole population.

Z6
03-24-2003, 02:05 PM
Did anyone watch Saddam\'s speech today? I watched it from the start and got the chance to listen to the intro. He could do with a decent composer. With that ridiculous eagle behind him, I half-expected Groucho Marx to come on and start playing Xylophone on his head.

So, all you budding composers, it looks like someone could do with a few rousing cues (at least you\'d get royalties for a little while). Think \"Hail Freedonia\" at 95 R.P.M.

If he plays that stuff at the coalition forces, they don\'t stand a chance. I didn\'t listen to the speech; the music was enough. I\'ve changed my mind completely. We\'ve got to invade. We\'ve got to stop that music. I\'ve found his weapon of mass destruction.

Russ
03-24-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Z6:
I\'ve changed my mind completely. We\'ve got to invade. We\'ve got to stop that music. I\'ve found his weapon of mass destruction. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">HAHAHAHA! That\'s the funniest thing I\'ve heard in a long, long time. The only thing that tops it is the shoe joke.

pantonality
03-25-2003, 09:55 AM
Hi All,

Being out of the country for a week I almost missed out on a very interesting discussion. In my discussion with people both Americans and otherwise there seems to be a great deal of concern about this war. Very few actually openly oppose it, but very few are gung ho supporters as well. I believe the reason is that we\'re starting this war and by definition that\'s a war of aggreession. We don\'t have the backing of the international community which means this war is essentially illigitimate.

Does that make it a bad war?

Well, there\'s a lot of agreement that Saddam is a very evil person and the world will probably be better off without him. He was bad before the US supported him against Iran in the 80s. The fact is the US inflated a bad man into a monster. A case could be made that it\'s our responsibility to take the monster down. What scares me is that the US track record for nation building is spotty at best and so far in Afghanistan we\'ve floundered.

I don\'t have much confidence the Bush administration will do any better in Iraq. Heck we\'re already cut off food and water to the citizens of Basra and can\'t get our act together to remedy the situation. This is the first test of whether our war against Iraq is truly benign for the average Iraqi. So far it doesn\'t look good.

On a slightly related matter I got an interesting email this morning, which was quickly rebutted by another coworker. This link spells out both sides clearly and includes accurate information purportedly from from Oliver North himself.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.htm (\"http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.htm\")

What\'s obvious is that there\'s a lot of misinformation going around aimed at discrediting opposition to this war. You just can\'t believe everything you see and hear. Folks let\'s use some critical judgement and try to avoid jingoism for either side.

I do think the Bush administration may have underestimated the magnitude of this task. I wish our soldiers well and every day pray for wisdom on the part of our leadership.

Steve Chandler
http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler (\"http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler\")

PS. Nick, do I qualify for the free library?