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Nick Phoenix
03-19-2003, 03:37 AM
I heard that they are no longer serving french fries at the white house. Now they are called freedom fries. \"Somebody shut up those Dixie Chicks.\" \"They\'re excercising their right of free speech.\" George Bush is a lying fanatic and much more dangerous than Saddam Hussein. He is an enemy of the American people and the world. I applaud the opposition from France, Germany and the rest of the world. May the truth prevail and the people of Iraq survive. I am excercising my legal right to oppose a rougue government, as is my DUTY as an American citizen. This is spelled out clearly in the constitution.

lex
03-19-2003, 03:51 AM
Nick..as an American with a brain what would be your toughts on this.
Why is your goverment picking on French exclusivly when both Russia and Germany share the exactly the same attitude?

Oh , and they are not serving french toast anymore ...only freedom toast..

What great nation you people could have...sad.. images/icons/frown.gif

Alex

Z6
03-19-2003, 04:07 AM
Lex, France have a veto on the U.N. security council. Also, to blame three countries might confuse people and suggest that there is more than one country who knows these actions to be illegal.

The U.S. cannot be tried in international courts for this (they gave themselves a window to allow these actions) but the U.K. can. I look forward to seeing Tony Blair in the dock \'defending\' this pre-emptive act of aggression.

lex
03-19-2003, 04:38 AM
So does Russia...but I guess it was easier to turn France in to an evil thing.

Alex

Z6
03-19-2003, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by lex:
So does Russia...but I guess it was easier to turn France in to an evil thing.

Alex <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Anyway, the Turkey shoot is about to start. I just hope that they go in with ground troops first and lob a few mars bars at them. I seriously doubt that there is a single Iraqi who actually wants to put up a fight against these invaders. But I also suspect that you have to offer soldiers some blood as well. There were dreadful accounts from the last war about what some British soldiers got up to. I hope it is not repeated.

So, good luck to operation \'We can\'t find Bin Laden so lets kill a few thousand people instead\'. This will surely wipe out international terrorism (\'cept the US variety) in a single blow. Geniuses all.

I look forward to peace and harmony and a better world. Thank goodness for elected leaders.

lex
03-19-2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Z6:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by lex:
So does Russia...but I guess it was easier to turn France in to an evil thing.

Alex <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Anyway, the Turkey shoot is about to start. I just hope that they go in with ground troops first and lob a few mars bars at them. I seriously doubt that there is a single Iraqi who actually wants to put up a fight against these invaders. But I also suspect that you have to offer soldiers some blood as well. There were dreadful accounts from the last war about what some British soldiers got up to. I hope it is not repeated.

So, good luck to operation \'We can\'t find Bin Laden so lets kill a few thousand people instead\'. This will surely wipe out international terrorism (\'cept the US variety) in a single blow. Geniuses all.

I look forward to peace and harmony and a better world. Thank goodness for elected leaders. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I cencerly hope so too...really whish that this will be the last stupid thing in the world...

If not I will pretty soon get a cottage in the desolate mountain, grow beard, grow potatoes and scream like an neanderthal to anybody who comes near my garden!

Alex

Beckers
03-19-2003, 06:41 AM
There was also talk of US economic sanctions against France. Even if you suspect ulterior motives for the French veto, when Chirac gave his reasons for the veto this WE, he reflected the vast majority world opinion. (The exception is the US, -where 50% of the population still erroneously believe Iraq was involved in 9/11)

Any nation on the Security Council with misgivings is meant to vote against the resolution, even if these misgivings are purely from self interest (it invariably is, e.g. potential loss of US aid). This is how the UN works. This is how a group of Jews got \"permission\" to form a nation on Arab Land (They then immediately grabbed more, doubling the size of Israel in 1949). It is not a judicial but a political body, but one that the US has subscribed to.

The UN is ineffective, both in its ability to decide what is just, its ability to act against injustice (UN forces, for obvious reasons, are unmotivated and fight like pussies) and its ability to stop unilateral warmongering (its main mission). On this occasion it is no surprise that this large body was unable to reach a clear decision, considering the large spectrum of opinion world wide.

The US\'s decision to go to war unilaterally with impunity has changed the UN into an irrelevant ornament. The UN is a very imperfect body, but it is the only global watchdog there is.

In principal, the world\'s only superpower working alone (or with any willing social climbers) would form a much more effective watchdog and executioner of justice. But not whilst the objectivity of its leaders\' decision making is influenced by their huge personal stake in the defence and oil industry, and its oversensitivity to minority lobbies.

noenoeil
03-19-2003, 06:46 AM
Thanks Nick.
Recently I had some irc chats with US people, and I took several xenophobic-like stupid bashes, for the first time in my life.
I hardly believed it, but when I heard about freedom fries, I sensed the beginning of something very wrong. These symbolic actions looks exactly like flag-burning parties, or much worst. Renaming or destroying other countrie\'s symbols. You know what I mean.
Not acceptable from educated and civilized people. White House? Wow.

Hudson
03-19-2003, 10:44 AM
I think the whole thing is to divert attention away from Bush\'s dismal domestic policies which are leaving this country in economic crisis, but I also have to say this...the French are complete morons. In fact, everyone who signed the last UN declaration which demanded the complete disclosure and destruction of Iraq\'s weapons of mass destruction and are now standing in the way of any attempt to enforce that declaration are morons. The *only* way to make Saddam comply with the UN resolution is with the threat of force, yet the French have openly declared that they will veto *any* resolution which would use military action if Saddam doesn\'t comply. The French stance on the reolution they originally agreed to is a joke. Hell, the UN\'s continued failure to enforce *anything* they\'ve passed regarding Iraq is a joke. Saddam has been laughing in its face for 12 years now, and its time we stepped in to enforce the very resolution the entire UN council agreed to.
Once Saddam\'s chemical and biological weapons arsenals are uncovered, and that\'s something that could never happen while he and his cronies were playing three card monty with the inspectors, I think the world forum will have a very different opinion. The way Bush went about it was beyond pathetic. I\'m sick of his cowboy mentality and his big oil interests. He\'s driving this country into the ground. But I also think Saddam has tons of very nasty stuff in his bunkers. Once we find that crap, I don\'t think any of this will matter. People will realize that regardless of the reasons we went into Iraq, the world will be a safer place for it.
-Hudson

Nick Phoenix
03-19-2003, 01:05 PM
Hudson,
The shelf life of most chemical/biological weapons is very short. Bush and his clan have lied about this. VX gas, for instance, has a shelf life of 5 years before it breaks down. Any VX that Saddam has, is 13 years old. The CIA admits that he hasn\'t been able to manafacture any VX or any of the other really awful and powerful agents since 1990, because this type of manafacturing is very complex and requires the importation of numerous conspicuous chemicals. So, in short, they won\'t find much of anything. But, you can be sure that they will LIE about what they find.

Bill
03-19-2003, 02:42 PM
The French and Russians make billions on their Oil for Food contracts with Iraq. If they weren’t singing Saddam’s song, they’d lose the contracts. That doesn’t make them bad. They’re no more or less self serving than we (the US) are. But pay attention to their motives.

This whole situation really has very little to do with George W. Its about Saddam and nuclear weapons.

After the gulf war he admitted to making a few mistakes. 1) Invading Kuwait without having nukes. 2) Not sweeping immediately down to the Arabian oil fields. 3) not using hostages as human shields 4) Trusting France and Russia to fix things up diplomatically.

Hudson
03-19-2003, 03:47 PM
Alright guys...you got me. I don\'t give a rats rump about bio weapons...I just want their friggin oil!! I drive a 40 foot long SUV that gets 20 gallons per 100ft, and I\'m tired of paying high prices for it. I need Saddam\'s oil, and I need it now.
-Hudson

Munsie
03-19-2003, 05:00 PM
\"George Bush is a lying fanatic and much more dangerous than Saddam Hussein. He is an enemy of the American people and the world. I applaud the opposition from France, Germany and the rest of the world.\"

Nick, by all means take your over priced, piss poor support sample business to another country if you don\'t like the country you live in.

As someone who supports this Country (USA) and the Commander In Chief and especially our troops, where I have friends and family, I take offense to your comments.

I will commend you on at least having the balls to post your rubbish using your real identity. This makes it much easier for me to make the decision to never again \"purchase\" any products made by Quantum Leap or East West.

I hope the business partners at East West realize what an you make out of yourself when you post your political statements on the very same forum your supposed to gain customers from. Incredible blunders, but again I commend you for having the ball$ to put your name behind your bs.

lex
03-19-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Munsie:
\"George Bush is a lying fanatic and much more dangerous than Saddam Hussein. He is an enemy of the American people and the world. I applaud the opposition from France, Germany and the rest of the world.\"

Nick, by all means take your over priced, piss poor support sample business to another country if you don\'t like the country you live in.

As someone who supports this Country (USA) and the Commander In Chief and especially our troops, where I have friends and family, I take offense to your comments.

I will commend you on at least having the balls to post your rubbish using your real identity. This makes it much easier for me to make the decision to never again \"purchase\" any products made by Quantum Leap or East West.

I hope the business partners at East West realize what an you make out of yourself when you post your political statements on the very same forum your supposed to gain customers from. Incredible blunders, but again I commend you for having the ball$ to put your name behind your bs. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Where do you see Nick saying that he doesn\'t like his country? He just doesn\'t like the president and his politics, are you saying this is one and the same?
Does majority of Americans think this way?

Alex

Bill
03-19-2003, 05:17 PM
… And just what is it we’d be fighting for if it didn’t include reveling in Nick saying what’s on his mind.

Now… let’s count our blessings for the week:

Elizabeth Smart returns alive
Joe Coors kicks off
No Alaskan drilling

Bruce A. Richardson
03-19-2003, 05:52 PM
Well, here\'s another Texan who thinks George Bush is the biggest sack of it on earth. I think he\'s got less balls than Saddam Hussein any day of the week. I\'d like to see Bush and Saddam in a one-on-one. Bush would get his butt kicked to Iraq and back.

Does that make me anti-American? Does it make Nick anti-American? I thought all the warmongering and chest thumping was in the name of protecting freedoms like the freedom to openly and honestly express one\'s opinions, no matter how unpopular.

Ironic.

Munsie
03-19-2003, 06:37 PM
\"Well, here\'s another Texan who thinks George Bush is the biggest sack of it on earth.\"

Well, here\'s a Texan saying you can take your disrepectfull comments about our President and stick em where the sun don\'t shine.

Sorry, but it\'s just seems to easy to hide behind a computer screen and type hateful remarks about the President. Tell you what Bruce, why don\'t you make a sign that says the above comment and march in downtown Dallas and see where that lands you and how much support you\'ll get.

Again, I\'m not pissed off that you guys disagree with the actions of our Government, that\'s our right as US Citizens, but when blatant disrepect is shown by immature phrases and downright hateful remarks, that\'s when it pisses me off.

lex
03-19-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Where do you see Nick saying that he doesn\'t like his country? He just doesn\'t like the president and his politics, are you saying this is one and the same? Does majority of Americans think this way?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Of course not. The majority of Americans voted for Al Gore.

BTW, on a somewhat tangential sampler-related note, I noticed that the person from Europe who runs the E-mu list (Emusaic) just shut down the list in protest of the impending war. As if E-mu didn\'t already have enough trouble...

Lee Blaske </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hehehe...poor, emu..they used to be so big, now that I can finnaly afford one I dont want it anymore..

On the shuting down forum issue..I think that can be pretty efective in getting your message accros..sounds silly but it\'s true...


Alex

Russ
03-19-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Munsie:
\"George Bush is a lying fanatic and much more dangerous than Saddam Hussein. He is an enemy of the American people and the world. I applaud the opposition from France, Germany and the rest of the world.\"

Nick, by all means take your over priced, piss poor support sample business to another country if you don\'t like the country you live in.

As someone who supports this Country (USA) and the Commander In Chief and especially our troops, where I have friends and family, I take offense to your comments.

I will commend you on at least having the balls to post your rubbish using your real identity. This makes it much easier for me to make the decision to never again \"purchase\" any products made by Quantum Leap or East West.

I hope the business partners at East West realize what an you make out of yourself when you post your political statements on the very same forum your supposed to gain customers from. Incredible blunders, but again I commend you for having the ball$ to put your name behind your bs. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Thank you, as I am tired of seeing almost everyone on these forums kick the proverbial asses of all the developers. I also agree on the comment on Nick\'s work, which is why I\'ve never bought and never will buy anything from Nick Phoenix or EW/QL. VotA is a poor library and the *only* reason people praise it would be that it is the only decent library out there, aside from SoV. Having a Men\'s and Women\'s choir makes as about as much sense as though Garritan Orchestral or Sonic Implants Strings just had high and low strings.

I have also heard that the use of VotA is prohibited from film trailers (and I believe films as well) -- considering that most of the people using gigasamples are commissioned to write for trailers, films, and games I find that an incredibly stupid move on your part. I could be wrong, but frankly it doesn\'t matter if I am or not as VotA is the most hyped piece of crap I\'ve heard in a long time. I honestly don\'t think EWQLSO will be that great of the library, as some of your sampling choices are pretty ridiculous in my opinions.

I\'ve talked to Gary and Marteen one-on-one and have shown both my support for different reasons. Marteen has a useable, functionaly, and affordable horn library (and soon to be trombone library) that I own and will reccommend to anyone above anything else. Gary\'s libraries may not be as \'useable\' to some people, but his policy on support and updates far exceeds anyone else I\'ve seen. If enough people ask for it, he will do his damnedest to get that to them -- every other developer I\'ve seen publishes the library, makes one or two updates, and then moves on to the next project.

Do I agree with the stance on war? Not really, but the way that Saddam has treated his people on a whole is atrocious and he *does* need to be taken out of power. The method he uses to subdue his people and maintain that grip on them is frightening, to say the least. When France just lets such a man slide in favor of keeping a stable source of income and supplies why should we *not*

I will more than likely get \'blacklisted\' from this forum and labeled a traitor, but I frankly do not give a damn. I am here to ask questions about libraries, make suggestions to improve on the product, or help find a Gigastudio or sample question. Unlike others, I am *not* here to kiss the developers\' asses.

Nick Phoenix
03-19-2003, 09:33 PM
Munsie ,
The truth hurts doesn\'t it. What does George Bush have to do with my sample libraries? I post this stuff precisely because I care about this country. Obviously it\'s going to hurt sales of my cd-roms. Some things are more important. How can you 2 profess to know the truth, when you get ALL of your information from media owned by 5 billionaires??? This country is being hijacked. I don\'t think it\'s OK for politicians to lie on TV every night and for the press to stand idly by and not challenge the lies. 50% of the American people believe that Saddam helped Bin Laden. The 2 are completely opposed to one another and there is absolutely NO evidence of this and yet 50% of the American people believe that they are working together!!!!! If that doesn\'t tell you something then there is something wrong with you. Not once has a George W. supporter made ANY type of reasonable intelligent defense of his policies. Not even once.

Russ,
VotA is allowed for film use. There are only a few people actually doing trailers, so it\'s really not an issue to 99% of composers. I\'m sorry that you feel that way about my libraries. I also don\'t kiss anybody\'s *** ever. So Let me just say that you obviously are letting your hatred of me cloud your mind a bit. Have you tried my libraries? They\'re not that bad.

Hudson
03-19-2003, 10:05 PM
Munsie, it\'s people like you that really scare me when push comes to shove. You want to boycott the Dixie Chicks for having the balls to say what the rest of the world is saying, and do the same to Nick\'s company. Everytime someone like you cries how someone else is \'un-American\' for saying what they believe, your very words fly right in the face of what America is supposed to stand for.
You talk about about respecting GW...well, I don\'t care if you\'re a plumber or the President...respect isn\'t some God given right, it\'s earned, and GW has gone out of his way to alienate this country from the rest of the world for his own personal interests. He doesn\'t deserve my respect. Hell, he ain\'t even my President...Big Oil elected his *** and they\'ve owned him ever since. So please, don\'t make him out to be some sort of saint. He\'s dragged this country down the crapper on both domestic and international fronts in record time. A few years ago, i was proud to be an American...now if I travel, I\'m saying I\'m Canadian!! That\'s what you\'re beloved GW has done for this country.
-Hudson


Originally posted by Munsie:

Well, here\'s a Texan saying you can take your disrepectfull comments about our President and stick em where the sun don\'t shine.

Sorry, but it\'s just seems to easy to hide behind a computer screen and type hateful remarks about the President. Tell you what Bruce, why don\'t you make a sign that says the above comment and march in downtown Dallas and see where that lands you and how much support you\'ll get.

Again, I\'m not pissed off that you guys disagree with the actions of our Government, that\'s our right as US Citizens, but when blatant disrepect is shown by immature phrases and downright hateful remarks, that\'s when it pisses me off. [/QB]<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

Nick Phoenix
03-19-2003, 10:20 PM
Munsie and Russ,
You win. This really makes me think about what I am doing on this forum. If I have to worry that you guys are going to bad-mouth my libraries because of my political positions( actually just my desire for truth), then I won\'t visit the forum any longer. So I guess this is the end of my political statements, because I like talking about samples. So I guess you guys can rejoice and dance the hoochie coochie at your next KKK rally. images/icons/shocked.gif

MDesigner
03-19-2003, 10:52 PM
I just want to step in and say Russ should read the license agreements more carefully before spouting off nonsense. I could\'ve sworn I just heard VOTA in one of the Leprechaun movies.

Everyone needs to chill out. Nick has every right to voice his political opinions, no matter how much they shock you. And of course, you have every right to boycott his products. But one of these actions is completely immature and stupid (can you guess which one?).

I would add to this political discussion, but I know zilch about it, so I\'ll pass. images/icons/smile.gif

Hans Adamson
03-20-2003, 12:33 AM
Hudson,

Here\'s how it works, since mr. Bush\'s propaganda machine has confused the American public:

In the security council, each of the 15 members have one vote. France has just like the other members one vote. If, when the voting is done, a new American resolution would have the 9 nessecary votes to pass, any \"no\"-votes from the five permanent members is automatically turned into a veto.

So you see, it is not a matter of if France is allowed to cast a \"veto\". The U.S. position is really that France is not entitled to cast a \"no\" at all.

Also, it is evident that the U.S. wasn\'t even close to gathering the nine necessary votes to pass in the first place. If a resolution would have passed with a minimum nine vote majority, a French \"no\"-vote would have given the U.S. administration a better propaganda tool.

To cancel a vote where you expect to win with a majority does not make sense.

Wake up, and see that you are being lied to.

Hans

ed buller
03-20-2003, 01:04 AM
Wotcha

I\'m sorry , but I think Nick has Balls for saying what he thinks and If you boycott his product because he doest vote the same way you do you really are living in the wrong country .

But on another note:

how much of QLSO can I run on a G4 laptop ......huh?


Ed images/icons/shocked.gif

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 01:28 AM
Sharmy,
Thanks for your support. I actually didn\'t mean that I would not visit the forum anymore. I meant that if the KKK brothers started attacking my libraries unjustly, then maybe it wouldn\'t be any fun anymore to log on to the site. So then maybe I would stop with the political posts and just stick to samples. But I have reconsidered.

A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War

by Michael Moore
March 18th, 2003

George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC

Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call \"the moment of truth,\" the day that \"France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table.\" I\'m glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn\'t sure if I could take much more. So I\'m glad to hear that today is Truth Day, \'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON\'T FIND THEM! Why? \'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don\'t want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here\'s what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won\'t have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let\'s see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What\'s that you say? You don\'t THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don\'t think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn\'t even have this country known as America if it weren\'t for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can\'t get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I\'m guessing there aren\'t a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you \"win\" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn\'t like to see a good *** -whoopin\' every now and then (especially when it \'s some third world *** !). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year\'s election. Of course, that\'s still a long ways away, so we\'ll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you\'ll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours, Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com (\"http://www.michaelmoore.com\")
A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War

by Michael Moore

Z6
03-20-2003, 02:44 AM
Nick, don\'t worry if your opinions inspire some to trash your libraries. There are those of us here who can separate these things.

Munsie, RI is a work of art. It is wonderful. A while back Nick and I got into a bit of slanging. I would never have dreamed of rubbishing RI because of matters unrelated (i.e. license policies - with which I took some issue).

The fact that I am with Nick on this may color my attitude (but not to his fine work), but if you think any library of Nick\'s stinks, then say so, but don\'t say so just because he\'s noticed what a little worm Bush is.

\'Disrespectful\' indeed. Booh, hoo. This piece of slime is happy to actually have people murdered. It is Bush who is dragging the U.S. Presidency into the gutter. Maybe it\'s time for the U.S. to re-evaluate the amount of power it bestows upon the seat of that power.

The U.S. has become the major danger to the rest of the world. Try, if you can, to put yourself in the position of the people who may be about to die. Try imagining that your wife and children or your mother have died horrible deaths for this little man and his insane schemes. The world is frightened of the U.S. The world is terrified. To attack an almost defenseless, dirt poor sovereign nation pre-emptively is nothing more than terrorism (or in Bush-speak, \'terrrrsm\'). To send your own people into a country that never did you any harm to kill or be killed in the name of lies is beyond criminal. There is hardly an insult that could be levelled at this man that would do him justice.

lex
03-20-2003, 03:31 AM
He is such a brilliant man...thanks Nick for posting..

Alex

Beckers
03-20-2003, 04:34 AM
Nick,

Don’t stop posting. Even if they are not always easy to swallow whole, your posts stop people like me being over-gullible. (E.g. I never dreamt of questioning issues surrounding 9/11 until I read your outpouring a year or so ago. I’ve read a lot since..) My brother lives in Florida and breathes Bush. He keeps sending me articles on how great and right Bush is. It is good to see counterbalancing views from other Americans. In a democracy it is vital to have an opposition that raises questions.

I don’t know what the truth is, but I have a grave concern that a man who ordered executions as a tool to get to the White House is being allowed to set the threshold for war.

Martin Beckers

Bill
03-20-2003, 05:50 AM
Of course, Michael Moore thought OJ was innocent.

Russ
03-20-2003, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
So I guess you guys can rejoice and dance the hoochie coochie at your next KKK rally. images/icons/shocked.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Nick,

First of all, if you *ever* insinuate me with the repulsive KKK \'organization\' again I will seek legal action against you, regardless of where you may live. I do not find that funny on *any* level and it is seriously offence.

Name one instance in my post where I said you were in the wrong for voicing your opinions. I also stated I don\'t agree with Bush\'s methods at all, and \"Freedom Fries\" is the most *ridiculous* thing I\'ve ever heard in my lifetime. Personally, I will not be forced to join, should a draft for men at arms ever commence. There are several reasons for this, but the main being I am literally the *last* male in my entire family line that is below the age of 35. I don\'t agree with France and the others for not having a backbone against Saddam, but that doesn\'t mean we should \"blacklist\" them either.

Not once did I say I knew the truth about Bush\'s motives -- only the President himself (and any empaths) knows for certain. I don\'t watch television, as much as that may surprise someone, so I am not aware of a lot of the broadcasts and how they are handled. I also do not allow myself top be influenced by the media, as more than not the information fed to the populace is either heavily biased, or completely wrong.

I don\'t hate you Nick, but I didn\'t agree with the statement about VotA not being allowed for trailers. I am fortunate enough to have a friend on Michigan that allows me to drive up there once in a while, play with what he has, and then base my buying decisions on how the dry tone of the libraries are. *He* stated the comment about the limitation on useage on VotA, not myself. I have not read the terms and agreements because A) I do not own the library and B) I rarely, if ever, write for a chorus so the practicality of my owning the library isn\'t high on account of its price.

I am still waiting on a library that allows selection of soprano, mezzo-soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone voices for even more control. Frankly, if you were to do this Nick and fix some of the problems I\'ve heard through playing with a friend\'s copy ({V2 BTW} i.e. *horrible* hiss in the lower registers of the four \'sets\') I would be one of the first to snag a copy. VotA has a *good* sound, but I don\'t believe it\'s the best choral library, just the best that\'s available at this time. I have been commissioned to score a short film about 17-19 minutes and I had originally planned on using a choir for most of the score, as a local choir had agreed to do it. However, I won\'t have time to print the parts and find a place to make the recorded vocals, and because I don\'t own VotA (mainly pricing on this concern) I had to drop the idea and focus on another approach.

I don\'t hold the other available libraries of yours in high esteem, simply because I don\'t like the tone of them (and because they are obviously higher than most and at this point in time beyond my financial limitations). I will admit I was out of line (and apologize) for \"crap libraries,\" but for right now my mind really hasn\'t changed from the writing of this response.

As for EWQLSO I have no opinions really as A) to my knowledge there are not demos, B) I haven\'t heard from anyone that has a chance for a beta hands-on experience, and C) it\'s not released. I do think that the ability to move throughout the three micing positions is incredible, but I also don\'t agree with some of the choices of sampling (4 bass trombones, only one solo violin, no solo contrabass, etc.).

I wasn\'t talking about you kissing anyone\'s *** Nick -- I was referring to a lot of the regular visitors in the site. Of the people commenting on WIPs or finished songs, I\'ve only seen Thomas_J (and one or two other people once or twice) say some constructive criticism on a piece and not \"It\'s perfect! You\'re great! Couldn\'t be better!\" As for the samplers, hearing just \"It\'s awesome!\" doesn\'t really allow the developers of the libraries to get *good* feedback on a project in development.

Anyway, I just got home from my \"pay the bills job\" so I\'ve got to get some sleep. Right now, there\'s nothing we can do to change Bush\'s mind -- he\'s as stubborn as a tick on a dog. Let\'s just hope for the best people, whatever it may be....

Bruce A. Richardson
03-20-2003, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Munsie:
Tell you what Bruce, why don\'t you make a sign that says the above comment and march in downtown Dallas and see where that lands you and how much support you\'ll get.

Again, I\'m not pissed off that you guys disagree with the actions of our Government, that\'s our right as US Citizens, but when blatant disrepect is shown by immature phrases and downright hateful remarks, that\'s when it pisses me off. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Oh please.

And I have already taken part in many anti-war public events, by the way, where I have spoken.

Tell me why I should have an ounce of respect for our appointed president. I\'d love to hear the logic behind that.

Bruce A. Richardson
03-20-2003, 07:15 AM
Anyway, I just got home from my \"pay the bills job\" so I\'ve got to get some sleep. Right now, there\'s nothing we can do to change Bush\'s mind -- he\'s as stubborn as a tick on a dog. Let\'s just hope for the best people, whatever it may be.... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes, trust and obey. That\'s the answer.

Russ
03-20-2003, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Yes, trust and obey. That\'s the answer. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Excuse me? Are you illiterate or do you get your rocks off on trying to put words in other people\'s mouths? Where did I say I trust him? I said I hope for the best in *all* of this -- I didn\'t say I trust Bush to make it all better.

Jan
03-20-2003, 08:01 AM
Nick, you act like a little child, you come here time and again with outrageous statements, and when somebody makes the decision not to purchase your libraries because he does not want to be supporting the livelihood of someone whose views AND THE EXPRESSION THEREOF are very offensive in his opinion, you back off. Now, be a man and don’t chicken out. If you have courage, then also be prepared to face some of the negative consequences of speaking up. I personally think that the WAY you express yourself is very biased and unfortunate. Angry provocative words give rise to an angry response.
If you are not prepared to face the consequences for speaking up, then you should not speak up anymore. I tell you, I never have let ANYTHING hold me back from expressing my opinions, no matter what the consequences might be, and I always stand behind what I say, I do not back off.
And as far as information is concerned, do you really believe that there is such a thing as objective journalism? You point the accusing finger at the American news stations, but I think you can point your accusing finger at ANY news station where ever in the world. Every reporter on earth colours his/her reports by the words he/she uses, and then I have not even mentioned the psychological make up of both the journalist making the report, and the person listening to the report. One event can be seen and interpreted differently by two different people witnessing the event, so objectivity is an illusion, everybody hears what he/she likes to hear, and we all pick our own views. You know what this means? There is very little discussion possible, just arguments clashing with each other.
So, you have a view, and you phrased it in such a way that it will give rise to a counterblast. The phrasing indicates not a desire to discuss, but a desire to argue, just like Z6 who seems to live off arguing, or like Bruce whose comments indicate exactly the same. That has nothing to do with intelligent opposition, it\'s just name calling, and to call your president a sack of sh*t indicates a total absence of any decency whatsoever. Out of respect for the presidency you might at least have phrased your objections in a more intelligent and respectful way. This says a lot more about you and who you are than about the president and who/what he is.

So Nick, do you find it strange that people may start to boycott your products then? I don’t.
I do not share your views. How can you think you are 100% right? YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE SADAM HAS NO CONNECTIONS TO AL QAEDA, you do not know what goes on in Bush’s mind, you do not have the same information at your disposal as he does, so, you could at least have some reserve in the expression of your opinion that Bush is a fanatical liar.
I also think it is a cheap, low (and very dumb) shot of you to compare those with an opposing view with extremist KKK members. Does my opposing view also make me a KKK member? I have heard this type of argument, namecalling, ad infinitum, it indicates once a gain a desire to argue, not to discuss. Seeing you react in such a childish way also makes me reconsider my future business dealings with EastWest and QL. I find it impossible to separate the man/organization behind the products from the products. Is that really your only defence, to slander and vilify those who oppose you?
And by the way, isn’t it anyone’s democratic right to boycott any product to express their disapproval of the organization providing those products? So, what’s the big deal then? That’s life.
You are abundant in your praise of France and Germany, but may I point out the economic interest of France in Iraq AND the VERY dubious reputation of Chirac?
May I point out Germany started TWO world wars in the previous century? On top of that Schroeder says the lesson they learned is ‘Never again a war’. He also could have learned a different lesson ‘Nevermore a dictatorship’.
And then there are protests from Russia, China, countries of course with a great democratic tradition...It is as if something within the heart of their leaders that has a secret love affair with the dictatorial spirit visible within Sadam.
Besides that, there is of course the ‘underdog’ syndrome, with Sadam being the underdog and the USA as the big bully. You know, I always have had a sympathy for the underdog because I know that role inside out, but when I see WHO Sadam really is, I cannot feel any sympathy whatsoever. My sympathy is for the many dead Kurds (including babies and children) his hands have murdered.

Well, here is my biscuit, tea break is over.

ryounger
03-20-2003, 02:38 PM
Hey Nick, It took me awhile but I finally made it to your little thread

“I heard that they are no longer serving french fries at the white house. Now they are called freedom fries. \"Somebody shut up those Dixie Chicks.\" \"They\'re excercising their right of free speech.\"

Right, but don’t the people of Texas have the right to protest if they wish? Oh yeah, that right is just reserved for the lefty commie crowd.

“George Bush is a lying fanatic and much more dangerous than Saddam Hussein.”

You are so right as usual Nick, I think that GB is going to gas California next. You really are a free thinker aren’t ya Nick!

“He is an enemy of the American people and the world. I applaud the opposition from France, Germany and the rest of the world. May the truth prevail and the people of Iraq survive. I am excercising my legal right to oppose a rougue government, as is my DUTY as an American citizen. This is spelled out clearly in the constitution.”

I can respect the right that some of the World has a different opinion than us, however the blatant trashing of our nation, simply because your candidate lost the last election is childish at best. Nick isn’t this action like biting the hand that feeds you? You are one of the fat cat capitalists, why do you whine so much? It wouldn’t be out of line to expect a little respect for your country. You can vote GW out in 04, until then stop the US bashing.

Here is some advice from anyone who disagrees with Nick. You will be called a member of the KKK, and you will be labeled “Aloof” if you really have a debate with him. Nick doesn’t debate with facts, he is just the typical liberal STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE. Nick, you should really consider moving to FRANCE. They will love you there. Oh wait, they have too high of taxes for you there, you couldn’t make a living. Oh well, a closet conservative trying to be a socialist liberal.

Nice thread Nick.

Russ

Bruce A. Richardson
03-20-2003, 03:29 PM
Well, I\'m glad to see that expressing a political opinion in this forum has reduced my user rating. At least I managed to piss someone off, and I\'m sure that our numbnuts excuse for a president appreciates the support!!

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 03:37 PM
OK the KKK remark was going too far. I\'m trying to make a strong point. How else can I fight against the monstrous money machine that has taken over. I have to fight. I make solid arguments and get nasty garbage in response. Bush is basically behaving like a KKK member by trying to incite hatred of the French. You support Bush and this type of outrageous bigotry.
Not one detailed, intelligent argumoent, supported by any evidence, has been made as to why we are invading Iraq. If you can\'t provide proof that Saddam and Osama are working together, that Saddam has all these terrible weapons (the inspectors didn\'t find them), then you have no case for war. The burden of proof falls on you. You are supporting the attack, YOU must prove that these things are true.

Our administration is lying. PROOF- Ari Fleisher comes on TV 2 weeks ago after the inspectors had reported not finding any weapons and says, \"but we still haven\'t found all the VX gas that Saddam made in 89 and 90. Saddam has not produced the gas and so we know he has these wepons of mass destruction\" Well guess what? VX has a shelf life of 5 to 6 years before it breaks down. Also the CIA has reported that Saddam has not made any VX after 1990. So Saddam does not have any viable VX. ARI intentinally mislead the American public. And I have offered concrete PROOF that you are being lied to. This is a traitorous offence. So when any of you devout Bush supporters can answer any of these questions, I will listen to you and give you a little more respect. I\'m waiting...........

Meanwhile , people are dying and you guys are whining about critisism of Georgy Porgy the secret head of the KKK. Instead of anwering the questions and allegations I have made, you start attacking my sample libraries and my buisiness sense. Well freedom doesn\'t just mean economic freedom. America has an abundance of economic freedom (especially if you are white like me). They are smart enough to leave that alone, because that\'s how they get their support. America is losing it\'s other freedoms. Can\'t you see it?

Munsie
03-20-2003, 03:38 PM
\"So I guess you guys can rejoice and dance the hoochie coochie at your next KKK rally.\" - Nick Phoenix

Seriously, I thank you for continuing to provide amunition for people so they can realize just how much of an you truly are. For the record I have never bad mouthed your products, just your customer support. IT\'S STILL AMAZING YOU HAVEN\'T THE BALLS TO HAVE A WEBSITE, PHONE NUMBER, WHERE USERS CAN CONTACT YOU ABOUT YOUR PRODUCTS AND YOUR PISS POOR SUPPORT! If you think a product page at the EW online store is a website you are sadly mistaken. I find it amusing end users are STILL buying your products where the only \"support\" you may provide is via a 3rd party forum!! graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif

\"So I guess you guys can rejoice and dance the hoochie coochie at your next KKK rally.\" - Nick Phoenix

I hope your business partners read this message and thread so they can see truly the kind of man you are. And I certainly hope potential customers from this forum will reconsider supporting you and your blatant disrespect for others, by not buying your libraries.

This is a sample library forum, you should have stuck to sample discussions and kept your foot out of your mouth. Thanks to your KKK comment, I\'m sure others now will obviously have to seriously consider whether they want to support you by purchasing your products.

Obviously your high priced libraries has kept you financially secure, I just don\'t see how otherwise you could make these blunders to the exact same customer base you are trying to sell your products to. Amazing...ly stupid.

Like Russ, I have taken total offense to your KKK slander and have documented this thread for future reference. Again...Amazing...ly stupid.

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 04:11 PM
I don\'t think it\'s stupid at all. It\'s wonderful actually. Now all the G.W. fan club will boycott my libraries. All 10 of you can sit around chatting about how you are going to figure out how to drill in Alaska and what a hero G.W is for getting Saddam.
images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 04:22 PM
Here\'s another idea. Maybe I will give away my next sample library to everyone who writes me an intelligent letter as to why they are unhappy with our current administration. That should really piss of the bigot parade. Don\'t think I won\'t do it either. Come to think of it, I have a wonderful little prepared piano FX library that I made for my own use. That might be perfect. I\'ll call it \"Biased Liberal Prepared Piano FX.\" That would be nice and stupid! I could make it available for download after reception of the email letter. More soon.........

Marsdy
03-20-2003, 04:22 PM
Nick

I\'m sorry to see your views shot down as being simply a lack of respect for your president and country.

I\'d like to know exactly why you should be respecting Mr Bush and his administration. Here we have an illiterate buffoon who can barely string a cohesive sentence together, an ex-alcoholic who has never made a success of any of his previous endeavours in life, a man intent on raping much of Alaska into a polluted wasteland, a man so lacking in dignity that he accepts his position in power knowing his family and friend\'s helped rig his election. Mr Bush wouldn\'t happen to have any connection with the oil business would he?... or be the boss of an administration that hands over millions of dollars to the Taliban, possibly the most repressive regime in history, only months before 9/11, and you people love the guy???

And then we have Mr Rumsfeld, closely connected with a company that has already been awarded a contract to help rebuilt the infrastructure of Iraq. What the @*!& is that all about?

Before attacking Nick, I would urge those unable to question Bush and Blair\'s motives and actions ask themselves a few simple questions like ...

1. Where is the proven evidence that there is a link between Iraq and Bin Laden? It is well known that historically the two parties have had nothing but contempt and mistrust for each other.

2. Why UN weapons inspectors cannot be given more time when according to Hans Blix, significant progress in disarmament was being made?

3. How is invading Iraq going to atone for or even out the horror of 9/11. Is the death of innocent Iraqi civilians or Allied soldiers really going to make the suffering caused by 9/11 more bearable?

4. Wouldn\'t it be better to spend the billions a war would cost on better schools, health care etc?

The above has nothing to do with America bashing or a disrespect of the American people. It has everything to do with contempt for a war mongering moron and his lap dog, (sadly I\'m referring to my own Prime Minister here.)

Munsie
03-20-2003, 04:51 PM
\"Here\'s another idea. Maybe I will give away my next sample library to everyone who writes me an intelligent letter as to why they are unhappy with our current administration. That should really piss of the bigot parade. Don\'t think I won\'t do it either.\"

On the contrary, I HOPE you do it.

Nick I hope the users of this forum hold you to your words, and especially those that back you up and encourage you to voice your opinions. As a matter of fact I agree that everyone who writes you an intelligent letter as to why they are unhappy with our current situation SHOULD get a copy of your next released library.

This is going to be Hardcore Bass or EWQLSO, right? C,mon Nick! Put YOUR money where your mouth is! Don\'t go back on this one! As a matter of fact, why email the letters when they can just post them in this thread so we call can see who deserves your new library!

ryounger
03-20-2003, 05:00 PM
Nick

“How else can I fight against the monstrous money machine that has taken over. I have to fight.”

Well you are going to catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

“Saddam has not produced the gas”

Proof please. Bush showed satellite photos of chemical and biological fermenting tanks. He could easily hide WOMD from the inspectors. If you would remember, in 1998, he kicked the inspection teams out. Why would he do this if he had nothing to hide? Iraq lost the Gulf War to the UN, he broke the treaty 17 times, he didn’t disarm in 12 years. He is a threat to the world, and you side with a lunatic like that? Wow!

“I make solid arguments and get nasty garbage in response.”

Well the KKK thing was kind of extreme. When are you going to use the Adolph comment again?

“Bush is basically behaving like a KKK member by trying to incite hatred of the French. You support Bush and this type of outrageous bigotry.”

See Nick, this is where clear thinking people will find everything that you say to be a pile of crappolla. I don’t notice Bush going over to people’s houses and burring crosses. What would your favorite president Clinton be? He thought that Saddam was a threat also, he nailed him with 450 missiles WITHOUT UN SUPPORT. Hmmm.

“If you can\'t provide proof that Saddam and Osama are working together, that Saddam has all these terrible weapons”

If you are proven wrong, will you admit it?

“the inspectors didn\'t find them), then you have no case for war. The burden of proof falls on you. You are supporting the attack, YOU must prove that these things are true.”

17 resolutions, 12 years to disarm. His time is up. Deal with it.

“So when any of you devout Bush supporters can answer any of these questions, I will listen to you and give you a little more respect. I\'m waiting...........”

Right, so what name are you going to come up with this time Nick? Hint, you already used KKK and Hitler.

“Meanwhile , people are dying and you guys are whining about critisism of Georgy Porgy the secret head of the KKK.”

Because it is not true. Therefore why should anyone believe a word that you say? I think you need to learn the adage, “Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet”

“Instead of anwering the questions and allegations I have made, you start attacking my sample libraries and my buisiness sense.”

Never did, in fact I think that you are a very talented individual.

“Well freedom doesn\'t just mean economic freedom. America has an abundance of economic freedom (especially if you are white like me).”

Where does it say anywhere that if you are not white you can’t have economic freedom? Care to explain?

“They are smart enough to leave that alone, because that\'s how they get their support. America is losing it\'s other freedoms. Can\'t you see it?”

Yes, but what does the left know about freedom? You wish to grow the number of people on entitlement programs. You wish to tax us so hard that we don’t want to succeed. You yearn for laws for the many, and freedom for the few. You lump people into groups so that they will hate each other. You wish to rob those who are successful so that more of the people can live in Government poverty. You’re whole political reasoning is based on a doom and gloom self prophecy that is meant to scare your followers into submission. That is the problem with being Liberal. Tell me Nick, when was the last time you ever heard a liberal say something positive about the world?


Still, nice debate Nick

Russ

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 05:08 PM
Munsie,
No don\'t try to change the subject. The library will be \"Biased liberal Prepared Piano.\" All my other libraries have others involved who aren\'t as \"STUPID\" as me. That\'s it. It\'s official. The first sample library for intelligent people only. \"Biased Liberal Prepared Piano\" available for download soon in 24 bit Kontakt format. Library free to anyone who writes me an intelligent letter condemning the Bush administration. Details soon........

ryounger
03-20-2003, 05:11 PM
Nick\'s prize should go to the liberal who can say somthing positive about the US.

Russ

Bruce A. Richardson
03-20-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by ryounger:
Nick\'s prize should go to the liberal who can say somthing positive about the US.

Russ <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">The United States is an excellent country. Too bad a moron happened to be appointed president at a time where the world rightfully expects more of the world\'s only superpower.

I blame Nader. He should have realized splitting the progressive vote would lead to this disaster, and done the right thing for the country. I admired his ideal of funding a true progressive party through his ticket, but...here we are.

Any Texan that paid attention to Bush\'s Governorship should not be surprised. There too, he inherited a healthy economy and left a broken one. There too, he managed to tarnish the reputation of the state. His performance is no different in the Oval Office. His allegiances are to big oil and to the religious lunatics and trailer trash stupid enough to believe his line of crap.

Never mind that he looks like a chimpanzee, especially when he\'s talking.

ryounger
03-20-2003, 05:46 PM
Hey Bruce.

I really like your articles on Prorec. You have taught me many things about recording and the behind the scenes of the music business. Thank you.

The question is still out there though; name some things that are positive about this country? I am not trying to sound like a Bush supporter, but could the real reason that there is so much anti war protesting is because of who is in the White House? Did Clinton not fire 450 missiles at Iraq without UN approval?

Neither Clinton nor Bush will be looked upon as the greatest presidents in the history of the US. In fact I would say that these two presidents have done more to divide our nation than bring it together. I will say though, if you think that Bush is the worst thing for the economy, then what about the last year of the Clinton presidency?

Russ

Bill
03-20-2003, 06:18 PM
Gore would have carried the Florida vote easily if he\'d had the traditionally Democratic Cuban vote. The Cubans voted Republican because of Elian Gonzales being returned to Cuba.

Of course Gore was a big supporter of the Gulf War, and a long time proponent of regime change in Iraq (despite his current rather politically motivated statements). Lieberman is all out for military action.


Think things would be different? I don\'t.

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 11:18 PM
Bill,
The democrats have proven that they are mostly a bunch of corrupt, spineless crooks as well. But, I must say that the Bush administration has surpassed even my own wildest dreams of sick and twisted policy.

Nick Phoenix
03-20-2003, 11:40 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

“Saddam has not produced the gas”

Proof please. Bush showed satellite photos of chemical and biological fermenting tanks. He could easily hide WOMD from the inspectors. If you would remember, in 1998, he kicked the inspection teams out.

ANSWER- Our own beloved CIA reported that SADDAM almost certainly not produced any gas since 1990. VX gas production is extremely easy to identify. The CIA said this. Point PROVEN. Hans Blix and other inspectors reported that they were not kicked out by IRAQ. This was a big lie. They were only kicked out of the presidential palace when it became clear that menmbers of the inspection team were American spies, mapping out the structure for bombing purposes. This was confirmed by 3 members of the inspection team. Point PROVEN.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:

Why would he do this if he had nothing to hide? Iraq lost the Gulf War to the UN, he broke the treaty 17 times, he didn’t disarm in 12 years. He is a threat to the world, and you side with a lunatic like that? Wow!

RESPONSE: I don\'t side with that lunatic. But he is very little threat to the world in his present weakened state. All credible accounts based on fact state that Saddam is pathetically weak.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:


Well the KKK thing was kind of extreme. When are you going to use the Adolph comment again?

“Bush is basically behaving like a KKK member by trying to incite hatred of the French. You support Bush and this type of outrageous bigotry.”

See Nick, this is where clear thinking people will find everything that you say to be a pile of crappolla. I don’t notice Bush going over to people’s houses and burring crosses. What would your favorite president Clinton be? He thought that Saddam was a threat also, he nailed him with 450 missiles WITHOUT UN SUPPORT. Hmmm.

ANSWER: Obviously, I am dramatising to make a point. But it\'s not far off. Bush\'s family has alot of ties. Ashcroft is a proven bigot with the most anti-democratic, anti-black record you could imagine.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ryounger:


“If you can\'t provide proof that Saddam and Osama are working together, that Saddam has all these terrible weapons”

If you are proven wrong, will you admit it?

ANSWER: Sure. But it is terribly unlikely. The US government never even gave us the proof that Osama did it. I am not saying he didn\'t, but we never saw the proof. They promised it and then never came through. Remember the picture that Powell showed last month of an Iraqi chemical spraying plane. Turns out it was a photo of a French crop-dusting plane. A huge lie and embarrasment that was buried by the American press.


So you have no argument. Try reading a well documented book.

csduke
03-21-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
I am excercising my legal right to oppose a rougue government, as is my DUTY as an American citizen. This is spelled out clearly in the constitution. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">** This story is somewhat amusing. I guess there\'s no freedom of hearing images/icons/wink.gif ***

Justice Scalia Bans Media From Speech
By PAUL SINGER
ASSOCIATED PRESS

CLEVELAND (AP) -

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia banned broadcast media from his speech Wednesday at an appearance where he received an award for supporting free speech.

Scalia did not mention the ban, which he insisted upon, and television reporters were allowed to see him accept the award before his remarks. The justice did not take any questions from reporters.

The City Club usually tapes speakers for later broadcast on public television, but Scalia insisted on banning television and radio coverage of his speech, the club said. Scalia was given the organization\'s Citadel of Free Speech Award.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/bw-scotus/2003/mar/19/031905893.html (\"http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/bw-scotus/2003/mar/19/031905893.html\")

Bruce A. Richardson
03-21-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by ryounger:

I will say though, if you think that Bush is the worst thing for the economy, then what about the last year of the Clinton presidency?

Russ <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Seems to me we were in a lot better shape. My retirement account is now almost 1/2 of what it was when Bill Clinton left the White House. I had hoped to be out of this rat race by age 50. Now I\'ll be lucky to retire at 65, maybe never.

You\'re right about my prejudice. I care a great deal about who is in the White House. I am still steamed at Bill Clinton for throwing away what was a very successful presidency for progressive and liberal thinkers. But one cannot compare George Bush and Bill Clinton seriously in terms of capability. Bill Clinton is a man of letters, a scholar, a brilliant writer on many subjects, and a man whose ability to make progress in our world position has been unmatched since the days of Roosevelt. He took on a failed economy and a nation suffocating in deficits, and had those things turned around to the point we\'d be debt free in ten years. On the other hand, you have George Bush, whose life achievements consist of riding the coattails of a family name. A man who cannot string together six words that make sense without a cue card. A man who has destroyed every shred of hope that our government might live free of the debt of compromise. A man who is currently squandering our future on gigantic smart firecrackers, blowing up millions of dollars a pop. A man so beholden to big oil that all hopes of reducing our dependence upon environment-destroying fuels has evaporated.

To me it\'s not liberal/conservative, republican/democrat, or any other polarizing manner of separating people. It\'s about character and ability. It is very easy to take a cheap shot at Bill Clinton\'s character, and indeed his worst mistake in office was a character issue--his achilles heel of being a charmer and not knowing when to turn tail and run away from a situation out of control.

Yet in matters of great importance, Bill Clinton was able to gain the respect and admiration of the world, and he was able to advance American interests in a way which was respectful and in which Americans could feel safe abroad. Now, our president has placed us in almost complete isolation. Travel? Forget it. Do business abroad? Compromised. Respect? We have none, almost anywhere on the planet, except in the form of fear of our brutal military strength.

Can you imagine the effect several billion dollars worth of food and medicine would have towards a peaceful world? Yet here we are, pounding craters in the sand in Iraq once more, throwing good money after bad. Is Saddam Hussein a creep? Of course. But face it, the Middle East in general is a land of such intense religious fanaticism and generally primative social construct that the regime which replaces Saddam will be hellbent upon revenge. The cycle will just start again with a different jackass at the helm.

In any situation, whether it\'s business or art, one doesn\'t gain ground by investing in failure. War, no matter how you examine it, is the epitome of failure.

Yet none of this is the fault of the United States in general, except perhaps of people\'s willingness to believe that George Bush might live up to his campaign promises instead of behaving like any other right-wing jerk once in office. Turns out, he\'s been worse for us than anyone, even a die-hard right-winger, could have imagined. I\'m sure Republicans are just as distressed about their retirement accounts, and any unbiased gauge of how our country is \"doing\" under George Bush would have to read failure.

Why is it so important to hear \"good\" things about America? Is it because it\'s downright depressing to see the truth? So, Russ, why don\'t you educate us a bit on this? What is better about living in this country now that George Bush and his papa\'s cronies are running the joint again? Looks like a really bad re-run to me.

Z6
03-21-2003, 10:58 AM
Bruce, enjoyed your thoughtful post very much.

But: \"But face it, the Middle East in general is a land of such intense religious fanaticism and generally primative social construct... \"

This is simply not true. It is a generally held stereotypical view of a vast geographical area filled with and endless variety of peoples and beliefs. In fact, the \'social constructs\' are mostly very advanced. The cultures are generally old and deep and the standard of education (outside the most extreme regimes such as Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Kuwait etc., - our \'friends\') is much higher than in the U.S. - certainly at high school to undergraduate level - There are many myths about this region.

We have to fully understand that we are all \'the same\'.

See if you can\'t get over there some time to see for yourself (as long as there aren\'t any bombs dropping, and assuming that there are still flights available). It is a wonderful place to visit. The friendliest place on earth; and I\'d bet that it\'s the only place on earth where Americans will be treated with respect within the foreseeable future (believe it or not).

I\'ve lived in the US and the Middle East. Many here might think I\'m just saying this for effect, but my impression has been that religious fanaticism is more prevalent in the
U.S. than the places I\'ve seen (or people I\'ve met) in the Middle East. People seem more religious in the Middle East (whatever their religion), but less fanatical (outside of the ridiculous newsreels we are always subjected to).

ryounger
03-21-2003, 11:00 AM
Hi Bruce

From CNNmoney
VC investment hit a high note in 2000, but experts anticipate a slowdown
By C.J Prince

“Not all industries have fared as well. E-commerce companies, for example, took one on the chin; investment in those ventures was down 92 percent in the fourth quarter of 2000 from its peak in the comparable 1999 period, and now accounts for only 1 percent of all Internet investment.”

\"You would expect that, because most people have looked at the e-commerce sector and said the business models just aren\'t working,\" said Lefteroff, adding that service companies focused on e-commerce have met with the same fate. \"I think it\'s going to be pretty tough to get anything funded in e-commerce in the next six-to-12 months.\"

Everybody knew that the technology sector was a short lived investment. The New Economy with its lies of profits where there is no profit being made was definitely something that was born during the Clinton presidency. My point is that you can’t blame the economy entirely on the Bush administration, it just doesn’t work that way. Maybe your frustration should be pointed at Greenspan, or perhaps having more of a diverse portfolio. Please believe me when I say that I am sorry that you lost your retirement. If I were in the same situation, I would have the same feelings as you about the president. I am not trying to flame you in any way.

There are many great things about the US. In this country the belief has always been that if you work hard and smart, you can achieve your dreams. I don’t understand how someone as successful as you Bruce could have anything bad to say about our country. You are correct in that Clinton is more intelligent than Bush. This doesn’t need to be debated. Clinton has a better gift of persuasion than Bush. This also doesn’t need to be debated. The question is this; would Al Gore have been able to be more successful if..
1. He won the presidency the same way that Bush did. (Oh yes it could have happened the same way.)
2. The events of 9/11
3. Starting out in a slipping economy.

Honestly I don’t think so. If Al Gore started a war with Iraq, would you still protest. Did you protest Bosnia? Did you protest Sumalia? (sp?) Did you protest the 450 missiles that president Clinton fired on Iraq?

Again thanks for the debate

Russ

ryounger
03-21-2003, 11:23 AM
\"But face it, the Middle East in general is a land of such intense religious fanaticism and generally primative social construct... \"

Actually I think that Bruce is correct about this. Did you quiz all of the schoolchildren in the Middle East to see if they are learning at the pace of the US? You know the only way to know for sure is comprehensive testing for both Middle Eastern and US schoolchildren. Are you suggesting that they don’t teach hate in Palestine? Iran? Afghanistan? I saw the burning of US flags by the children of Pakistan (sp?) on 9/11. I saw how much the loved us.

Honestly Z6, why do you live here? Oh yeah, because this is the land of opportunity. Hmmm. It just seems to be hypocritical. You hate our country, YET you live here.

You don’t have to agree with any administration to be an American. You don’t have to like all the things that our government does to be an American either. On the other hand, if you can’t say anything nice about the US, why do you hive here.

Nice debate though
Russ

Z6
03-21-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by ryounger:
\"But face it, the Middle East in general is a land of such intense religious fanaticism and generally primative social construct... \"

Actually I think that Bruce is correct about this. Did you quiz all of the schoolchildren in the Middle East to see if they are learning at the pace of the US? You know the only way to know for sure is comprehensive testing for both Middle Eastern and US schoolchildren. Are you suggesting that they don’t teach hate in Palestine? Iran? Afghanistan? I saw the burning of US flags by the children of Pakistan (sp?) on 9/11. I saw how much the loved us.

Honestly Z6, why do you live here? Oh yeah, because this is the land of opportunity. Hmmm. It just seems to be hypocritical. You hate our country, YET you live here.

You don’t have to agree with any administration to be an American. You don’t have to like all the things that our government does to be an American either. On the other hand, if you can’t say anything nice about the US, why do you hive here.

Nice debate though
Russ <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well mate, I don\'t \"hive\" in the U.S., you\'ll be happy to learn. If you\'d understood any of my many previous posts you\'d know that I don\'t hate the U.S.

Well, you agree with Bruce? Good for you. I was merely suggesting that Bruce\'s excellent post was slightly sullied by a bit of stereotyping that I am almost certain wouldn\'t exist if he were to actually go to the area and see for himself.

No, I didn\'t poll every schoolchild. I was merely expressing my opinion as someone who has actually lived and worked in both areas for a number of years. Just my \'general impressions\'; my own sterotypes, if you will.

\"THEY\" teach hate? Here we go. Who are THEY?

Maybe one day you\'ll get into the head of a Palestinian youngster (I doubt it, but maybe). Maybe one day you\'ll see the torture THEY have endured year after year after year. They burned your flag? All of them? Every single Palestinian is guilty of burning your precious symbol? Well, your country, and mine, is burning people as I write. Burning people for nothing. For the ego of a small man with a small mind supported by smaller people.

So, maybe if I say \'something nice\' about the U.S., maybe then you\'ll welcome me?

How\'s this: Your country was once perceived throughout the world as a \'great country\'. But no more. It is perceived now as a terrorist regime that rains death upon the innocent - simply because it is in a bad mood.

I am ashamed to be British. Were I American I would be ashamed of that also.

ryounger
03-21-2003, 04:54 PM
Z6, maybe you would be better suited in China, Russia, N. Korea, or Iraq during Sudan’s regime. Really, you claim no allegiance to anyone. Why do you live here if it is so bad?

Russ

Ps. Why do you claim that you live in the US if you don\'t? It would explain alot of you don\'t live here.

garyob
03-21-2003, 05:19 PM
I\'ve been on the fence about the invasion of Iraq for some time now. If the people of Iraq could truly say what they want without fearing for their lives what would that be? I just watched our soldiers ripping down a poster of Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi people cheering and helping them. It told me a great deal. I\'m getting off the fence.

Gary

Z6
03-21-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by ryounger:
Z6, maybe you would be better suited in China, Russia, N. Korea, or Iraq during Sudan’s regime. Really, you claim no allegiance to anyone. Why do you live here if it is so bad?

Russ <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes, maybe. Where is it that I live? Now, as an exercise, I want you to re-read my posts very carefully. Take your time. It\'s free. (and there are clues!)

Yes, I claim no allegiance to anyone. Correct. Thanks for getting at least that. I prefer not to live as a sheep thanks.

Who is Sudan? I thought Sudan was a country.

I\'ll live where I please and say what I like. My opinions on the Middle East that get you so riled were formed by personal experience. I have lived and worked in quite a few countries. I reserve the right to reflect on my personal experience if you don\'t mind.

Now go away and leave me alone. My post was to Bruce, not you. I always enjoy Bruce\'s posts, and I enjoyed that post especially. I just couldn\'t help sighing when I saw such a tired old stereotype buried within a neat analysis of the state of the U.S. presidency.

On the other hand, I do not enjoy your posts one bit, and it takes far too much energy to try to \'explain\' things to you.

So, I promise to go to Sudan and live in Iraqi\'s regime, and I\'ll only eat Chinese food flown in from Russia, and I\'ll drink nothing but North Korean vodka. Happy?

Now, let\'s get back to your moron president. Tell me, how stupid does one have to be to actually vote for such a slimy, murdering little toad, and how thick is the git that defends him?

Those questions were rhetorical, by the way, I don\'t want an answer, please, please, please.

Z6
03-21-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by garyob:
I\'ve been on the fence about the invasion of Iraq for some time now. If the people of Iraq could truly say what they want without fearing for their lives what would that be? I just watched our soldiers ripping down a poster of Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi people cheering and helping them. It told me a great deal. I\'m getting off the fence.

Gary <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well I just watched our soldiers raining death down upon innocent poor people thousands and thousand of miles away from their own countries.

It told me a great deal.

Gary, glad to hear you\'re off the fence. Dead Iraqi\'s will be over the moon to hear that.

Please someone help me. Help me. Is this for real? Are these people really believing that we are actually killing Iraqis for their own good? Where can this end? What on this earth cannot be justified if this murder can be so easily excused?

You didn\'t, by any chance, see any of the dead people cheering did you? Because that really would convince me.

Gary. They want rid of Saddam. They want rid of Saddam. Yes, yes, yes. They want rid of Saddam.

They do not want to be blanket bombed by those fluffy (non-weapons of mass destruction) bombs that we use to \'free\' them.

Mass murder is afoot.

But I\'m off the fence too. I\'m down to my local nursery school tomorrow to kick some serious arse. I reckon that I could probably kill every child in that nursery as easily as the U.S./UK forces are killing Iraqis.

Thank god we are good. Thank god we are freeing those poor wretches we feel so sorry for. It brings a tear to my eye. I am so proud to be British.

I reckon I\'d cry if I saw our soldiers tearing down a picture of Saddam. I\'d be so proud that all the murder meant something. It just goes to show that sometimes murder is a power for good, no? You convinced me Gary. Thanks man.

We will all go straight to heaven for this. Bush is a saint and Blair is Jesus and Saddam is the devil.

How far we have come from the middle ages.

garyob
03-21-2003, 06:40 PM
R6,

Does this mean that I don\'t get my free prepared piano library from Nick? Shucks, the kids at the nursery are going to be disappointed!

Gary

Beckers
03-21-2003, 06:47 PM
I\'m watching that same death rain. Does it make Bush evil, or just wrong?

I think he is acting out of a genuine conviction: he envisages a global Pax Americana, which was originally dreamt up 5 yrs ago by a group of Republican hawks, the think tank PNAC (Project for the New American Century), which included Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz (arch Zionist), Richard Perle and Jeb Bush.

US citizens elected a man as president with limited thinking power, a poor understanding of the rest of the world, who absorbs gut feelings as his main guide. He surrounded himself with these hawks and soon accepted their PNAC treatise “Rebuilding America’s Defences” as his bible. This advocated a massive rise in defence spending in order to spread democracy throughout the world through military domination. It seeks to prevent the emergence of any new rival power, to deter Europe from developing its own security arrangements, and to establish the right of pre-emptive strikes against any perceived threats. (The French have seen this coming, hence their stance).

It advocated starting on Iraq, not so much to get rid of Saddam Hussein, but to establish US military dominance in the Middle East. It calculates that the favourable outcome of the democratisation of Iraq, which would follow a 2yr occupation, would inspire moderates to oust authoritarian regimes in Arab states and the fundamentalist regime in Iran. Thus al-Qaeda would be deprived of the Saudi source of funds, and Iran and Syria would stop funding Palestinian groups. (See also Charles Krauthammer\'s recent essay in Time: \"Coming Ashore\")

Although Bush alluded to this scheme in a recent speech, it was never presented as the basis for war, no doubt because he figured few would buy it. Therefore he used the emotive issues of WMDs, Saddam’s evil, and, especially, 9/11 to swing American public opinion behind him. (Did Bush et al. allow 9/11 to happen for this reason? I’ve no idea, -ask Nick Phoenix). Bush directed the Pentagon, in secret, to start planning the war against Iraq within 6 days of 9/11. The war was going to happen no matter what the UN inspection team did or did not find. (The inspections were curtailed by the US drive for war, the urgency, no doubt was out of fear that the inspections were not going to turn up dangerous weapons, and that the Iraqi’s were becoming more cooperative under the pressure).

In my opinion Bush’s naivety has prevented him from grasping a more likely outcome of his Middle East Scheme: tradition-minded Arabs deeply resent the intrusion of Western powers on Arab lands. Moderate Arabs are likely to become tolerant of, support, or even join al-Qaeda. In any free elections they are much more likely to put in place fundamentalist governments, supportive of al-Qaeda. (9/11? –you ain’t seen nothin yet).

None of this makes Bush evil, just playing his version of the role of the president of the US.
However, I may be wrong, but I believe that Bush’s threshold for the war was lowered by secondary factors, like Bush’s insensitivity to human costs, his links to the oil and defence industries, and the Israely lobby. This would make him evil

Pax Americana, next up: regime change in Iran, N.Korea, Syria, Lybia, China.

Nick Phoenix
03-21-2003, 06:58 PM
Beckers, Thanx for that. Sorry I couldn\'t be so calm and eloquent.

Z6
03-22-2003, 12:45 AM
Beckers, China? Nah. Never China.

Nice post. But did you know that Saddam has flouted UN resolutions for almost twelve years? I\'m sure if you did you\'d have a different view. images/icons/wink.gif

Z6
03-22-2003, 03:49 AM
By the way Beckers, I don\'t mean to imply that they didn\'t name China, just that they would never take China on. China have the means and the will to fight back. The US government prefer their victims to be defenseless.

With the Turks moving into Kurdish regions (to \'stem\' the flow of refugees?) and already a \'target\' in Iran hit (by god, those missiles certainly are accurate - hitting an oil ministry building thirty miles from Basra probably requires a good aim), and flagrant abuse of Iranian air space, it seems that they\'ve already started the second phase of their \'chaos games\'.

Abadan is a popular spot for US missiles. This isn\'t the first time this has happened.

Beckers
03-22-2003, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by Z6:
But did you know that Saddam has flouted UN resolutions for almost twelve years? I\'m sure if you did you\'d have a different view. images/icons/wink.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Sure he did.

But I hope you wouldn’t wage an all out invasion like this, with its short and long term consequences, over the flouting of resolutions per se. You would weigh the seriousness of the issues: were they over Saddam parting his hair on the wrong side, or because he presents a serious threat to the world? This is the crux. MI6 has consistently reported through the 90’s that Saddam posed no threat and that containment was working, so that he was in no position to repeat his chemical attacks, despite unaccounted stocks of chemicals and anthrax he was known to have had in ’91.

Saddam’s flouting of UN resolutions was certainly a tool for US foreign policy makers (read PNAC, Richard Perle).

UN resolutions are pretty lightweight and are used and abused almost at will. Take Resolution 1441: it had to be reworded to substitute the word “force” for the words “serious consequences”, ELSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VOTED DOWN. Yet the US and UK then used precisely this resolution to legitimise their war.

Israel has been in breach of international law since 1949, and never more so than today, without \"serious consequences\"


EDIT:

I don’t believe for one moment that the cue for this invasion was a crescendo of concern over Saddam’s possible WMD and his flouting of resultions. The cue was 9/11:

The PNAC recognised that their “Pax Americana” was impossible to achieve due to the prevailing political need to avoid casualties of war, due to the long term fallout of the Vietnam War, and reinforced by the debacle in Somalia with 18 dead. This made the deployment of large numbers of US troops abroad impossible if there was a risk of actual fighting. In their report, published in 2000, the PNAC suggested that, to change this, there was a need for some catastrophic and catalysing event. Like a new Pearl Harbour.

That event came on 9/11/2001, bleeding but giftwrapped.

Beckers
03-22-2003, 07:59 AM
I\'m not trying to say that the administration had anything to do with orchestrating the twin towers attack. But it is surely conceivable that they knew an al-Qaeda attack was imminent and \"failed\" to support investigation and prevention.

Of course they could not have foreseen the size of the tragedy. But they certainly used it afterwards.

Z6
03-22-2003, 08:19 AM
Sorry Beckers, my remark was tongue-in-cheek. I\'ve been saying it in a lot of my posts because people kept saying it to me as if it were a justification.

Beckers
03-22-2003, 10:09 AM
Yeah, I recognised the ooze of sarcasm; I just used the event to launch another piece of diatribe.

I was hoping someone\'s going to pick up on the Israel jibe. I\'m good on Israel. (C\'mon guys, I\'m ready)

unison
03-22-2003, 05:11 PM
It comes to my mind that the US of A has a long recent history of obstructing international treaties:

-The Kyoto CO2 deal
-The international war criminal tribunal
-International ban on land mines
-International ban on nuclear tests
-Implimentation of agressive nuclear policy, even when no nuclear threat is imminent (this clearly contradicts the UN non-proliferation treaty)
-The US has signed a ban on chemical weapons and yet mr. Rumsfeld asked congress to use the so called non-lethal gasses in Iraq.. The same sort of \"non-lethal\" gasses that killed more than 100 of 800 people in the Moscow theatre seige this fall (now you do the math!)..

And besides:
-US gov. supplied Iraq with chemical weapons in the 80\'s fully knowing that these weapons were being used against Iran in the war back then.

What was that about throwing the first stone?

I will be the last person to defend Saddams regime that has been nothing short of Germany or Stalin time USSR. But when one country (or coalition of countries) decides to topple another country\'s leadership outside any international law, just because they see it that way and has surpreme power, -that\'s when I get really scared and wonder what the world has come to.
In Russia those metods are used by the mafia. Can you please tell me the difference?
Imagine China telling Bush and his cronies to get the **** out of America in 48 hours or face a full nuclear attack?

BTW: Is oral now renamed to freedom ?

Beckers
03-24-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Beckers:

The PNAC recognised that their “Pax Americana” was impossible to achieve due to the prevailing political need to avoid casualties of war, due to the long term fallout of the Vietnam War, and reinforced by the debacle in Somalia with 18 dead. This made the deployment of large numbers of US troops abroad impossible if there was a risk of actual fighting. In their report, published in 2000, the PNAC suggested that, to change this, there was a need for some catastrophic and catalysing event. Like a new Pearl Harbour.

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Anyone else struck by similarities between the current invasion of Iraq and the Vietnam War?

Both were/are ideological wars, driven by a \"defence\" policy of aggression, designed to eliminate political systems in other nations incompatible with American style democracy.

In both cases congress and the people were manipulated by fabrication to support the war wanted by the administration: Then: the fictitious Tonkin Gulf incident in ’64. Now: the forged evidence of Iraq’s attempts to acquire uranium, the suppression of evidence against the existence of WMD, the baseless implication that Iraq was linked with 9/11.

There is again a great potential for the invasion to become bogged down in a guerrilla war, with the enemy going underground in small units, merging into the civilian population; this time the jungle is urban -(what should they use as defoliants?). A British commander said today it could go on for years..

Wasn’t there a “never again” thing about Vietnam?