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Skysaw
02-09-2004, 01:45 AM
http://www.allhands.com/mp3/orpheus.mp3 (\"http://www.allhands.com/mp3/orpheus.mp3\")

Just posting this for your enjoyment before I crash for the night. This is the Air De Danse from Stravinsky\'s Orpheus. It features an oboe duet and harp solo with solo and full strings. I think it\'s a good demonstration of how GPO can really shine if you take the time to work out all the articulations. I used two different solo oboe sounds to give each line its own flavor.

Please let me know what you think.

Ned Bouhalassa
02-09-2004, 05:59 AM
Great work! And it\'s such a pleasure to hear some contemporary music on these boards... even if it is neo-classical. images/icons/wink.gif

What\'s next? A movement from the Rites? images/icons/cool.gif

csduke
02-09-2004, 11:05 AM
Very nice job Skysaw! Though I\'m certain I have missed some, this is one of best sounding GPO demos I have heard to date. What a great choice of music to render too. I must have listen to Orpheus about 200 times between my high school and college days. It brings back memories. Thanks.

Skysaw
02-09-2004, 08:08 PM
Good to meet some other Stravinsky fans, and thanks for the comments. I think Orpheus is one of the most beautiful pieces of its era. There are still a few spots I\'d like to fix (for example, the trilled section at 1:40), but I\'m also working on 6 other pieces at the same time (and also moving to a new house!)

It turned out to be a lot more work than I anticipated because of the exposed nature of the instruments, the unusual orchestration, and my never-satisfied ear.

And yes, Ned, I do have the intro to Le Sacre up to the Dance of the Adolescents done, but I need to wait for the big fat gigabyte of memory that is on its way to me through the mail before I can really do it justice. My next demo will be one of my own orchestral works, however; it\'s been waiting twelve years for its premiere. images/icons/smile.gif

Jamie

Haydn
02-09-2004, 08:55 PM
Jamie,

You may want to double check that you have legato mode setup correctly. The woodwind trills will come out much better. The rest is sounding pretty darn good.

Ned Bouhalassa
02-09-2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Skysaw:
And yes, Ned, I do have the intro to Le Sacre up to the Dance of the Adolescents done, but I need to wait for the big fat gigabyte of memory that is on its way to me through the mail before I can really do it justice. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif That sounds great to me!! Can\'t wait... Oh, and of course, I look forward to your own work, bien sur! images/icons/wink.gif

Oksi Moron
02-09-2004, 10:30 PM
Thanks so much for posting this, Skysaw!


Originally posted by csduke:
What a great choice of music to render too. I must have listen to Orpheus about 200 times between my high school and college days. It brings back memories. Thanks. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Ditto here. Orpheus, Apollo, Persephone, and the Norwegian Moods are some of the Stravinsky pieces I listened to over and over back in my young days.

I\'ve spent this week using GPO to mock up the Larghetto from his Eight Instrumental Miniatures, so I guess you and I are nibbling at either end of the same noodle. I keep vacillating between wind controller and keyboard/ modwheel combo, trying to decide which works best for which line.

The piece I\'d really like to mock up is his Pastorale as scored for violin and piano. But talk about exposed! The violin line would have to be like quicksilver or it\'d be a travesty.

The phrasing in your mockup sounds pretty good. Stage-wise, the instruments sound almost as if they\'re on the same plane. Stravinsky, I know, is \"dry\" in the best sense of the word, but the oboes here are maybe a bit too quackily up-front?

Thanks again for giving us some \"lesser-known\" Stravinsky!

Greg

Skysaw
02-10-2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Haydn:
You may want to double check that you have legato mode setup correctly. The woodwind trills will come out much better. The rest is sounding pretty darn good. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That was done with legato mode, but it\'s very difficult to get those oboes trilling convincingly. There is a certain \"window of inopportunity\" at the start of the samples when moving to another note creates a bump. In a fuller orchestration, it is much less noticeable, but it seems I always pick the toughies. I will load up the third unused modern oboe to see if it handles that better.

The problem is even worse in the mid and lower range of the bassoons, where I\'m having a very difficult time with an exposed rapid legato scale in another piece. If anyone has convincingly worked through these problems, please post a solution and example for the rest of us!


Originally posted by Oksi Moron:
Orpheus, Apollo, Persephone, and the Norwegian Moods are some of the Stravinsky pieces I listened to over and over back in my young days. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">For me, my next favorites have been the two symphonies (\"in C\" and \"in Three Movements\") and Agon, that I\'ve enjoyed most among the lesser played Igor. Amazing coexistence of dissonence and beauty in those works.

Garritan
02-10-2004, 11:11 PM
Thanks for posting this difficult and unusual piece Skysaw. I agree with Oksi that your phrasing is very good.

You mentioned you were having difficulty with an exposed rapid legato scale in the bassoons. Adam Burford, an accomplished bassoonist and regular contributor to this forum, has done some rather impressive rapid runs with the GPO bassoons.

Here is an example: http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/aburford/LaPromenade_Berge.MP3 (\"http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/aburford/LaPromenade_Berge.MP3\")

Perhaps Adam can give some pointers.

Glad you were up to the challenge with this Stravisnsky piece. I would like to hear more of your work.

Gary Garritan

Skysaw
02-12-2004, 01:03 AM
Thanks for the compliment, Gary. Feel free to use the demo if you want.

The posted bassoon piece is well done, but I\'m not really crazy about the runs in that either. They definitly break the illusion of reality when they appear. The double reeds are definitely the most problematic.

But I don\'t give up easily. I\'m doing a lot of experimenting, and will report back on my findings.

Adam Burford
02-12-2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Skysaw:

...I\'m doing a lot of experimenting, and will report back on my findings. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Skysaw,
I\'m looking forward to learn what you find!

I\'ve got a more recent example with rapid bassoon runs, here:

http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/aburford/ShowerOfStars_Wachs.MP3 (\"http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/aburford/ShowerOfStars_Wachs.MP3\")


Originally posted by Gary:

Perhaps Adam can give some pointers.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">My view of GPO is that it is an instrument, to be learned like any other, and mastered if you can. I don\'t particularly wish to make \"realistic\" recordings. I like the bassoon sound of BASSOON SOLO 2 best, not because it sounds like a great bassoon (which I think it does) but because the sound of a bassoon is great to begin with and a digital version of the acoustical instrument is a great sound, too! In that sense I want to master the GPO instrument.

Some runs that I\'ve notated for bassoon are close to impossible to actually play on an accoustical bassoon. A handful of professionals can play them, no doubt. Similarly, back in the 1920\'s mechanical piano arrangements were sometimes \"impossible\" arrangements.

So with that in mind, I think arranging for a \"real\" bassoon can and should be different from arranging for a GPO bassoon in some new piece written for the GPO bassoon.

Well, here\'s what I have been doing...

Watch the velocity of the beginning note of a slur. This is your attack, and notes in the BASSOON SOLO 2 get real breathy above 100. And watch for low velocity, too. Values around 40 are \"sneak\" attacks. \"whhhhaaah\" attacks rather than a \"ta\".

A clear attack on the first note of a slur will help the ear by contrast understand that the notes that follow are \"different\", not attacked, but slurred.

At the end of the rapid slurred passage, shorten the last note slightly. Who\'ll notice? No one in the sense that they\'ll say, \"Oh, the last note is shortened. But it\'s part of the technique of phrasing. A slurred passage is not just about inserting Sustain Pedal messages, it\'s all the surrounding sound as well.

I\'ve picked up ideas from other people\'s demos here at the forum.

I\'ve discovered that radical changes in the Mod Wheel don\'t necessarily result in perceived volume changes. I\'ve learned that Mod Wheel changes during a rapid slur draw the ear away from hearing the bop-bop-bop of the individual notes. Too much here yet to be learned for me to comment further. In my demo above I did some playing around with tempo and volume -- do you think that helps smooth out the slurs? I think it does.

And in conclusion images/icons/wink.gif , I believe that a digital instrument doesn\'t necessarily need to be realistic. Slurs are a way of changing the characteristics of notes for your musical purposes, but with a new tool comes new means that need to be learned on their own terms, which are not necessarily traditional.

I once heard Henry Mancini talk about his music. It was too long ago, and I don\'t remember what he said, but he used as a sound sample an alto flute playing over a full orchestra -- this is not realistic, but it sounded excellent. Isn\'t the main characteristic of an alto flute a feathery tone that blends in with it\'s surroundings? Not so for Mancini. What can we now do with GPO that is unrealistic? Well, for starters we can write rapid passages in the key of G-flat Maj for the Bassoon, and we don\'t hear all the infernal key clicking. images/icons/smile.gif