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robgb
12-14-2003, 04:43 PM
An offering to the wolves. This is the first part of what will eventually be a longer piece. I\'ve had a little time to spend with GPO and gotta tell you I\'m loving every second of it.

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rbrowne/DesertWaltz.mp3 (\"http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rbrowne/DesertWaltz.mp3\")

Marsdy
12-14-2003, 04:52 PM
Your woodwind players have enourmous lungs. Without pauses for breath, the woodwind phrases have an organ/accordian like quality.

robgb
12-14-2003, 05:05 PM
An astute comment, but also an interesting one because it begs a question:

Do we need to try for absolute realism in our pieces? Is that the purpose of an orchestral library -- or should we consider the sampler and its voices to be an instrument itself, to be played however the mood strikes us?

I\'m not sure I care about realism. Should I? This could be a fault or a virtue -- I don\'t know. But I think it\'s a question worth pondering.

sirbellog
12-14-2003, 05:07 PM
I do not want to be rude,
but so far this would not make me want to rush and purchase GPO :
the pizzicati sound very mechanical, quantized, and, as it was said, the woodwind phrases seem rather artificial and synthy.
I hope you update this and come back with something more convincing.

robgb
12-14-2003, 05:11 PM
LOL. I must have a steady hand. There\'s not a quantized note here. images/icons/smile.gif

Headcheese
12-14-2003, 05:34 PM
I would agree with the breath comment - but the quantized comment is a little harsh. Overall a very pleasant peice. Sound quality of the MP3 was a little harsh (hissy) on my machine - maybe that was what drove the harsh comment

Houston Haynes
12-14-2003, 06:23 PM
I can\'t get to the file - can you put it somewhere where I can fetch it and give a listen?

Also, there are plenty of woodwind players that can use circular breathing in a live performance setting - at least 3... images/icons/wink.gif

Can\'t wait to hear it.

robgb
12-14-2003, 06:27 PM
Link should work okay now. Or right click to download.

Ian Dorsch
12-14-2003, 06:50 PM
Thanks for the demo, Rob. I think the winds sound perfectly nice. Maybe the \"accordion\" sound that people are commenting on has to do with the grace note onset in the solo clarinet near the beginning of the piece...it has something of an accordion-ish character to it. Doesn\'t really bother me.

falcon1
12-14-2003, 07:07 PM
Hi robgb, I must admit that I agree with most people that I found the articulation of the wind players little odd. But if you want to have it this way, then just do that - you\'re the composer. images/icons/wink.gif
Anyway, nice piece.

Bob Wolski
12-14-2003, 07:34 PM
I liked it alot. Thanks for the demo.

I like the theme. Made me imagine a mischievous, sneaky band of mice on a clandestine mission into the kitchen... heehee.

Bob

robgb
12-14-2003, 07:37 PM
Thanks, guys. One thing I\'ve learned as a screenwriter is that when several people offer up the SAME criticism, then they\'re probably right.

But then I have to ask again, am I going for realism? I\'m torn. I guess the best thing to do is change the winds and see how it sounds.

And I should probably take a couple of lessons on a wind instrument first... images/icons/smile.gif

O Boy
12-14-2003, 08:25 PM
I think the winds are just fine. Wind parts can be broken between two players, so you can just say that the first part of the phrase is played by one, and the \"answer\" is played by another. Winds are typically grouped in pairs in the orchestra, anyway.

The trick will be finding a spot where one player can sneak in. I\'m thinking the long, sustained note in the middle of the phrase would be a good spot for the second player to sneak in.

A very evocative piece. I liked it. It sure made me want to hear more, and hear where you\'re going to go as far as thematic development, orchstration techniques, etc.

Woo-hoo! [translation: it\'s good]
O.

Dr. Apostrophe X
12-14-2003, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by robgb:
Do we need to try for absolute realism in our pieces? Is that the purpose of an orchestral library -- or should we consider the sampler and its voices to be an instrument itself, to be played however the mood strikes us?
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'m with ROBGB on this one, I think: it may be the emulations of the orchestra which pay the bills (and let\'s face it, the idea of conducting and constructing an entire orchestra and having them play your own compositions is pretty darned cool) but I can\'t wait to hear GPO (above any of the other orchestra libraries out there because GPO seems to have the most \"personality\", almost like you can actually hear the wood of the instrumetns) used with other styles of music.

How about it? Anyone up for some GPO-tinged electronica? Some pop or rock arrangements?

Al Capps
12-14-2003, 10:17 PM
\"Quote by robgb\"
------------------------
I don\'t know if you guys are just being kind to Silver, you have a natural bias toward it or what the problem is -- but I\'m pretty neutral in this whole matter and I think GPO -- at least with this particular demo -- blows Silver out of the water.
The Silver demo lacks the nuance and expression of the GPO version. The GPO version sounds closer to a real orchestra than Silver -- which sounds very synthy and seems to have two velocity settings: loud and louder.
Normally, I woudn\'t jump in here and compare the two, but Doug and Nick seem to be inviting the comparison by their choice of demo material and, I\'m sorry guys, but you lose.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Another \"Quote by robgb\"
-----------------------------------
An astute comment, but also an interesting one because it begs a question:
Do we need to try for absolute realism in our pieces? Is that the purpose of an orchestral library -- or should we consider the sampler and its voices to be an instrument itself, to be played however the mood strikes us?
I\'m not sure I care about realism. Should I? This could be a fault or a virtue -- I don\'t know. But I think it\'s a question worth pondering.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Robgb: It seems you want it both ways. Maybe you should ponder your posts a little bit more.

Al Capps

robgb
12-14-2003, 10:29 PM
Taken out of context, I can see your point. But the demo in question with Silver and GPO was Beethoven\'s 5th, and the goal, one would assume, is to emulate an orchestra and make it sound as realistic as possible. That was, I believe, a selling point.

This composition, however, is my own. And the way in which I used the woodwinds was my OWN, not Beethoven\'s.

That said, I am attempting to change the woodwinds a bit to see if it works better. The goal, however, is not to perfectly emulate an orchestra, but to present a piece of music.

So, yes, I CAN have it both ways.

Aaron Levitz
12-14-2003, 11:00 PM
I like. Let\'s start with that.

---

Wind players breathing isn\'t so much a matter of realism as variety - the natural limitation of having to inhale occasionally forces a musician to break up phrases. One note ends up a little shorter than it might otherwise -- it\'s just a little detail that gives the performance life.

---


Originally posted by sirbellog:
so far this would not make me want to rush and purchase GPO<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'m not convinced he\'s not trying to sell you a copy. Robgb\'s just playing with his new toy, and spreadin\' the love.


Originally posted by sirbellog:
the pizzicati sound very mechanical, quantized, and, as it was said, the woodwind phrases seem rather artificial and synthy.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I agree that there\'s something unnatural about the pizzicati. I\'m not experienced enough with strings to really put my finger on what\'s bothering me there. It\'s not mechanical or quantized, but perhaps the lower notes are too intense - these poor musicians are going to tear their fingers apart before the piece is over. Perhaps the harp would be more natural for these moderately fast repeating patterns, with pizzicato strings reserved for effect?

I think I\'d like to hear some of the plucked strings ring out longer, and others muted immediately. If those options are offered, alternating between them might establish more of a groove.

Could be wrong about what\'s needed there. And the fact is, it\'s only the first few measures (before the melodies kick in) that anyone\'s going to care.


I couldn\'t disagree more about the woodwind phrases, though. I\'ve played flute for over 15 years, and I\'m very excited about what I\'m hearing now. But if you prefer other libraries, by all means use those.



Originally posted by sirbellog:
I hope you update this and come back with something more convincing.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">If you\'re going to throw down the gauntlet, I think it only fair that you post something more convincing yourself with the libraries at your disposal.

---


Originally posted by Dr. Apostrophe X:
How about it? Anyone up for some GPO-tinged electronica?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s very much where I\'m heading, though I need to purchase Fruity Loops before I can go anywhere substantial with it - the demo will only take one so far...

robgb
12-15-2003, 12:35 AM
Thanks again, all. Here\'s a new version with some slight breathing room for the woodwinds. I don\'t know which I prefer. I\'ve gotta sleep on it...

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rbrowne/DesertWaltz.mp3 (\"http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rbrowne/DesertWaltz.mp3\")

J. Whaley
12-15-2003, 01:06 AM
Rob, how long have you had GPO and how long did it take you to create this sequence? images/icons/smile.gif

robgb
12-15-2003, 01:19 AM
I\'ve had it a couple of weeks, but only got a chance to spend some quality time with it late Friday and Saturday night. I\'d say, all told, it took me about three or so hours to do this little piece, which I wrote directly in GPO.

I find that the quality of sounds in GPO is very stimulating to creativity (although some might argue that there isn\'t much creative here... images/icons/smile.gif )

nullex
12-15-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Apostrophe X:
Anyone up for some GPO-tinged electronica?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You don\'t know how long I\'ve been waiting to delve into this genre! I love electronic music and have been producing it for about a year, but always wanted to add some realistic instrumentation to my tracks!

Oh, and I really like the track in discussion in this thread. Concerning the realistic or not debochle, my thoughts are this: ultimately its your choice, and your choice only, but you may lose some of your listeners\' appreciation/respect/money if you don\'t deliver a realistic sound that your setting them up to receive with such a realistic sounding library. My two cents...

Louis Athenstean
12-15-2003, 02:52 AM
Hi Rob,
nice piece, would be a buying argument for me. Although, there are some rough edges in the performance which would distract me when I would here this in a concert. Here are just my 2 cents...

The basic pizz-run: I agree with others that it somehow sounds odd but I cannot figure out exactely why. To me it seems like the \"players\" have problems keeping up with the speed and dynamics of the run. I just tried it on my violin and as it\'s stretching over multiple strings and quite fast, it\'s pretty hard to make it sound nice. Two suggestions: a) drop the second note (just \"Huuuuuuuuum badi badi\" if you know what I mean images/icons/smile.gif ). This should increase the effect of the pizz-base-note and gives the upper notes a more dance like sound. b) for further contrast, split the run on different sections. Let\'s say the celli only pizz the base-note and the 1nd violin (if the 2nd does the tremolo) does the the 4 others (if you leave out the second pizz as suggested).

Precission of the pizz: I think it\'s quite important to give the pizzes an \"almost quantized\" quality. It\'s nothing worse than a pizz run where the timing is wrong, as it sounds like you\'re dancing with a basket full of bottles. The listener cannot concentrate on the dance itself but gets distracted by rushing for and back in time (where the basket would rattle).

The intensity of the pizz: Seems fine to me. I once heard a conductor explaining the strength of a pizz like that: If your just in a rehearsal, do it a little so everybody knows there is at least something and you know the notes. But at the concert, let blood be running if necessary... was only a joke, but one can pizz quite loud if it really has to be.
Never the less, it seems like a good idea to give the base-note to a lower-register (celli, viola) as it gets a more earthly sound. There is just more corpus on those instruments to really develop the pizz.
One thing though, as the pizz is going through the whole piece, most string-players would probably like to kill you after an hour of rehearsal... images/icons/wink.gif

The breathing: Sound fine to me (a real clarinet-player would probably use more breathing, but the overall sound is not harmed by missing that), but I abandond all wind-instruments a long time ago... images/icons/smile.gif
I myself would use breathing pauses a little bit more to shape the characteristic of the motiv, but that is just a matter of taste.

Composition: I really like the interplay (right word?) between the flute and the clarinet. It\'s a little bit static, but that fits great into the mood of the piece.
But in my opinion, the effect of the pizz is lost because it is used too much. Try to give the strings some legato runs in b-part at 2:08. When you get back to pizzes at 2:30, the result will be like pulling the ground beneath peoples feet. Building a contrast will enhance both parts, the pizz before and after the b-part...

So, breakfast is long over, gotta do some work. Hope that helps

Louis

nexus
12-15-2003, 03:30 AM
Don\'t let some of the comments here discourage you, the woodwinds aren\'t bad, you\'ve just ran up against the main problem with samples...they have a static sound ( the dreaded \'accordian\' effect!). If your piece had been played with live musicians, then good players would have altered their tone slightly as they played each note corresponding to the type of phrase being performed. Some of this can be accomplished with GPO or similar libraries. Listen again to the Mozart clarinet concerto being demoed on Gary\'s site. Listen how the woodwind phrasing sounds. I have struggled with these types of problems for years. It\'s alot of work to get it sounding right and this is why people opt for big libraries with tons of sampled articulations, etc.

dnortana
12-15-2003, 04:59 AM
Consider for a moment the fact that GPO has been designed from the ground up such that attack varies with note-on velocity, and timbre/volume are controlled by cc1. And, of course, the pitches respond to pitch bend. These are consistent design features across the entire orchestra.

Remap the output from a wind controller (like my WX5) to translate cc2(breath) into cc1, and now the wind controller player has an entire \'custom designed\' orchestra at his disposal.

Or, use a breath controller like the Yamaha BC3 to produce the woodwind passages\' volume control track. Very natural sounding phrasing will result. Or, at least there will be breathing pauses :-) Heck, if I don\'t perform the part perfectly on my WX5, I even drift off pitch - when I examine a recorded midi part, there are always small pitch nuances happening, as I listen and correct, just like with a real player and a real instrument.

I don\'t want to hijack Rob\'s thread, but wanted to point out that GPO is a sample library with unparalled wind controller compatibility. For me, as a WX5 player, that translates directly into enhanced expressiveness and realism for all the wind instruments, maybe even the strings as well.

I enjoyed your piece, Rob.

Trond

Dr. Apostrophe X
12-15-2003, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Aaron Levitz:
That\'s very much where I\'m heading, though I need to purchase Fruity Loops before I can go anywhere substantial with it - the demo will only take one so far... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">In regards to FLStudio Producer Edition: this is one (>$100) purchase that I have never, not for a moment, regretted. I\'m constantly amazed with how thorough the FLStudio environment is: they\'ve pretty much thought of everything and the interface is designed to let you do things very quickly (particularly how VSTi are handled and routed through the mixer). I still use SONAR for the more nuanced and composed tracks I do (particularly in non-standard time signatures), but FLStudio is #1 for anything at all pattern oriented.

I\'d be curious if anyone is using GPO with FLStudio as a host? Wondering if the Fruity VSTi wrapper can handle the Kontact player?


Oh and I like \"Desert Waltz\" very much.

Tarkio Road
12-15-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by robgb:
Do we need to try for absolute realism in our pieces? Is that the purpose of an orchestral library -- or should we consider the sampler and its voices to be an instrument itself, to be played however the mood strikes us?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I would guess that most people who buy orchestral libraries choose them because the samples have the ability to sound natural and real.

But it\'s your library! images/icons/smile.gif If you want to use GPO as a synthesizer have some fun. But I would suggest that there are other synth plug-ins that would offer much more variety of sounds, and definitely can sound unrealistic. Using GPO for this seems to be working against it\'s programming strengths.

Shazbot
12-15-2003, 01:00 PM
I think it sounds terrific. I can picture this as being under the opening credits of a Tim Burton movie. images/icons/cool.gif

Jamie Haggerty
12-15-2003, 01:06 PM
Beautiful piece. Very introspective and thoughtful. Makes me wish the dealer would ship my GPO so I could play with it.
I didn\'t hear the first version but I agree with you Rob that once instruments are in the sampled realm it makes them much easier to do things they normally can\'t. There should be nothing wrong with that. And with that thought, Thomas Newman is a great one for taking real instruments and using them in ways most people don\'t think of. It\'s all about what the composer wants in the end. As someone once said on this forum...\"NO RULES\"
J

JohnnyP
12-15-2003, 01:22 PM
Rob,
I enjoyed the piece. In regards to the first version. Hmmmm I think it could be just a matter of phrasing runs.
Overall, I\'m pretty impressed if this is just two weeks \'out of the box.\' I haven\'t made a pruchase decision yet: I wish GPO was on OS9 HMPF!.
Oh well. Cool piece. As someone else commented i could totally picture this in a film score.

Patthoven
12-15-2003, 01:47 PM
Yeah,

I was not impressed by the criticism. I don\'t give a rat\'s as* whether something sounds completely realistic. Accurate articulations and resonation is important only to the degree that it has been specifcally sought after in any given piece.

My discrimination begins and ends with........ is it enjoyable, is it fun, is it cool, does it evoke a feeling.

Music is a subjective art. If you love what your doing doing,....do it well and do it with passion! images/icons/grin.gif

robgb
12-15-2003, 04:36 PM
Thanks again, guys. Whatever the result, I\'m having a ball.

Aaron Levitz
12-15-2003, 05:12 PM
I like the new version better. The changes are very subtle, but I think it\'s more dynamic now. Gives a playful little \"bounce\" to the beginnings of phrases.

And, the pizzicato notes no longer bother me. Went back and compared it to the original, and those don\'t bother me either. Not sure what was different in my perception last night - probably that I was listening at lower volume so as to not wake others. Anyway, it\'s all good now.

Houston Haynes
12-15-2003, 05:46 PM
I like it - A LOT! images/icons/grin.gif

I get your phrasing, and I also understand some of the comments. I tend to \"over breathe\" a phrase when using a breath controller, simply because it gives that \"natural sound\" whatever that is. But professional players can put together some amazingly long phrases, so I think you will hear a wide range of \"phrasiology\" if you listen to various \"live\" performances of your favorite pieces. How you choose to translate that to your own work is up to you. Most of what I hear in this example sounds quite good to me.

Two things: 1) almost all held notes in a wind player\'s phrase will be \"driven\" both in tone color and volume, and some of those changes are more conspicuous by their absense - i.e. the \"organ effect\" and 2) once the real-time controls are present to the point that you are hearing them consciously, your are distracted by the fakeness of over-control, or the \"synth effect\" if you will.

It\'s a delicate balancing act that I think you\'ve managed quite well here (the last oboe phrase is a notable exception). I just spent last evening listening (in the background while cleaning my apartment) to a lot of soundtrack stuff wrapped up in shows on the Discovery and History channels, and some of it was quite good. Then there was some that sounded like a bad MIDI score piped through the factory sounds on a SoundBlaster. images/icons/shocked.gif My point is that this piece stands up to comparison with many of the things I hear on T.V. - in a supposed \"professional\" environment - and surpasses many without a sweat.

CHEERS! images/icons/grin.gif

robgb
12-16-2003, 12:35 AM
Ahh, but then they\'d sound like synth sounds. I do, as a matter of fact, have a number of synth plug-ins, but I like the idea of being able to manipulate real instruments as well. Hell, combine them all.

What is the purpose of a sample library? Is it always to create perfect (or near-perfect) realisations of the instrument? I don\'t think so.

If I was going for absolute realism, then I failed. But when I constructed this piece I was merely writing WITH GPO, trying to put down what sounded good to ME. I\'ve changed the winds as suggested, but I\'m not sure the piece doesn\'t suffer because of it. I\'m too close to it to know at this point. images/icons/smile.gif

The bottom line, of course, is that when you\'re doing your own music it doesn\'t matter HOW you manipulate the sounds, whether it\'s realistic or not, because the ultimate listener (most often non-musicians) aren\'t going to care about that stuff. They just care about the music.

If you\'re mocking up Beethoven or Mozart or Williams, by all means, keep it real. Otherwise, do what FEELS good.

lumpyhed
12-16-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Apostrophe X:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron Levitz:
[qb]

I\'d be curious if anyone is using GPO with FLStudio as a host? Wondering if the Fruity VSTi wrapper can handle the Kontact player?

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Kompakt handles just fine for in my fruity loops. Infact everything i\'ve tried seems to run just fine, though i\'ve found with some of em you have to look through a list to find the right knob for automation.

robgb
12-17-2003, 05:06 PM
Thanks all for your kind comments. I really appreciate this forum and the spirit of giving here.

Thank god for music, eh?

jjdpro
12-18-2003, 08:42 AM
Hi Rob,
I love this piece!!!. Very nice job. This has definitely made up my mind for purchase GPO.

Again,nice job..
LaMont Davis
JJD Media Productions


Originally posted by robgb:
An offering to the wolves. This is the first part of what will eventually be a longer piece. I\'ve had a little time to spend with GPO and gotta tell you I\'m loving every second of it.

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rbrowne/DesertWaltz.mp3 (\"http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rbrowne/DesertWaltz.mp3\") <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

yannitch
01-09-2004, 10:59 AM
I just came across this demo (it\'s not on the garritan.com site?) I think its\' one of my favorites...

robgb
01-10-2004, 12:23 AM
Thanks! I appreciate the kinds words.

Crackbaby
01-10-2004, 02:47 AM
I\'ll do like everybody else: Nice job!

However, good critism can make your creativity stop .. so i want to hear more music from you images/icons/smile.gif
ASAP

Hardy Heern
01-10-2004, 03:14 AM
Smashing piece Rob...something different again...one of the better ones I\'ve heard in a time. I guess the pizzicato is slightly metronomic and too level but that could be easily tweaked.

Regarding the pizzicato speed this could be split into two sections in the real world couldn\'t it?....to reduce the workload.

However, it sounds terrific already. The whole point is that this would be more than good enough to demonstrate your (excelllent) ideas to any producer or WHY. Why should a Pro spend the time or money (on fancier libraries) unless they want to cut out the real orchestras altogether.

Hobbyists like me are prepared to spend inordinate amounts of time tweaking to near, absolute realism, but only because it pleases me.

It has struck me for some time that the busy Pro who wants to demonstrate an idea can do it quicker and with totally adequate realism, for the purpose, using GPO.. The next stage is real orchestras...isn\'t it pro guys? To spend ages tweaking is certainly a great example of diminishing returns and doesn\'t make fininacial sense when it comes to trying to hook a customer I would have thought. After they\'ve committed cash then you can spend the time! images/icons/smile.gif

If you were an artist you\'d show your customer a sketch of what your customer would expect...before commiting the time....that\'s only sensible business practice. If no one is interested stick it in the sketch portfolio.

Just my tanner\'s worth.

Frank