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tabtech
12-08-2003, 11:17 PM
Here\'s my first attempt.

http://newterra.chemeketa.edu/faculty/tabtech/Sib1-IV-D.mp3 (\"http://newterra.chemeketa.edu/faculty/tabtech/Sib1-IV-D.mp3\")

This represents four days of work. I decided to learn GPO using a classical score because I can concentrate on learning the software and sounds without worrying about composing, voicing, etc. This is from Sibelius symphony no. 1, the 4th movement. I had to open an extra instance of Kontakt player to hold the KS technique strings (tremolo/pizz). I found myself doubling some of the more dramatic arco string parts with short tremolo notes to intensify the attacks. Sorry I stopped when it just started to get exciting. I wanted to keep the file size down and give you something to listen to.

Sepretod
12-09-2003, 01:00 AM
Wow. Beautiful! Almost perfect. Only problem is that the woodwinds sound a bit synthesized during the quieter parts, but this is great. Makes me look forward to getting GPO even more.

christianb
12-09-2003, 01:07 AM
Super job man.
Faith has been restored. images/icons/smile.gif


cb

GeorgeDaae
12-09-2003, 01:27 AM
Very nice! Well, sounds certainly like an orchestra to me.
*wonders why people are mentioning cats in context with GPO* I mean: I know how cats sound, I have one. Perhaps those people should get a one too...

Could you please render a version without those tremolo notes, so we can hear the natural attacks of arco strings?

Thanks for the demo!

tabtech
12-09-2003, 08:06 AM
The woodwinds do need a bit of tweaking yet. The problem arises when you layer a solo instrument over an ensemble sound to make a section. Depending on the voicing, the solo part will be routed to the next available note. this tends to make the section sound uneven. A little more experimenting should add more realism to it. As far as the arco strings, the first motive section contains no doubled tremolo.
I\'m still searching for the elusive alternating bowing effect. From what I understand, it is included in every solo string instrument and is activated by the sustain pedal. I think that type of control will need to be input \'manually\' on the computer screen. Anybody else figure that one out?

Sepretod
12-09-2003, 08:37 AM
Good point, tabtech. I hope there aren\'t any functions in this program which absolutely require the use of MIDI instruments and anything which doesn\'t come with the package itself.

You can just install the GPO and go right ahead programming music on any modern (i.e. post-2002) standard PC, right?

cuba
12-09-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by tabtech:
Here\'s my first attempt.

http://newterra.chemeketa.edu/faculty/tabtech/Sib1-IV-D.mp3 (\"http://newterra.chemeketa.edu/faculty/tabtech/Sib1-IV-D.mp3\")

This represents four days of work. I decided to learn GPO using a classical score because I can concentrate on learning the software and sounds without worrying about composing, voicing, etc. This is from Sibelius symphony no. 1, the 4th movement. I had to open an extra instance of Kontakt player to hold the KS technique strings (tremolo/pizz). I found myself doubling some of the more dramatic arco string parts with short tremolo notes to intensify the attacks. Sorry I stopped when it just started to get exciting. I wanted to keep the file size down and give you something to listen to. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

cuba
12-09-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by cuba:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by tabtech:
Here\'s my first attempt.

http://newterra.chemeketa.edu/faculty/tabtech/Sib1-IV-D.mp3 (\"http://newterra.chemeketa.edu/faculty/tabtech/Sib1-IV-D.mp3\")

This represents four days of work. I decided to learn GPO using a classical score because I can concentrate on learning the software and sounds without worrying about composing, voicing, etc. This is from Sibelius symphony no. 1, the 4th movement. I had to open an extra instance of Kontakt player to hold the KS technique strings (tremolo/pizz). I found myself doubling some of the more dramatic arco string parts with short tremolo notes to intensify the attacks. Sorry I stopped when it just started to get exciting. I wanted to keep the file size down and give you something to listen to. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Great Job !

Not Dudley Simpson
12-09-2003, 09:44 AM
Thank you tabtech. That was a very enlightening demo. The strings and flutes sound wonderful. The only slight minus might be the oboes/cor anglais - but they always seem to be problematic in any lib. Their naturally nasal qualities never quite translate satisfactorarily to samples.

Congratulations
Heath

tabtech
12-09-2003, 10:28 AM
This exercise was a great learning tool. I am finding out that there is much more to explore with this product. I haven\'t even listened carefully to every available instrument yet. The manner in which the sections are built is vital to the performance and blend as well as the overall system performance. I special ordered a new computer with 1GB of fairly fast RAM and still heard some clicks when all the instruments were playing at the same downbeat. It took some creative adjustment of attack times to make them go away. This may have to do with some other background processes running on my computer that don\'t need to be there. Like Gary says, don\'t expect a full orchestra to play with less than 1GB. I plan on adding at least 512MB more some time next year. Generally, I can use one section instrument or solo instrument with one overlay to make a section. With the right combinations, it sounds real nice.

Haydn
12-09-2003, 05:05 PM
What kind of system are you using? I\'ve never had problems with clicks or pops when beta testing the library. When I push about 200 voices the timing starts getting messed up but still no pops.

The auto-alternating articulations are the short bows. Play the same note over and over and you\'ll hear the differences between notes.

tabtech
12-09-2003, 05:39 PM
I have a 2.4 GHz P4 Compaq Presario running WinXP Pro and Cubase SX 1.06; 1GB RAM, 80GB C:drive, 80GB external Firewire drive which holds the samples (could that be a bottleneck? I was taught to run programs on drive C and audio files from a different disk). My sound card is a Tascam US-224 using the 24-bit ASIO driver. The sync isn\'t perfect but the latency is close enough. I haven\'t touched the Virtual Memory settings and both drives are defragged. With everything loaded, the cubase.exe process was using a full 2/3 of that G of RAM. I have only 2 instruments loaded for each section/MIDI channel plus an extra one for string KS on an additional Kontakt player instance totalling 7 VST instruments. Ambience reverb is a single master effects send. Where do you think the problem is?

PeterRoos
12-09-2003, 06:19 PM
Can you PLEASE re-post this demo at 192 kbps mp3? 96 kbps is really too bad and distorted. At first I thought the low tremolo strings were really crappy, until I heard it was probably an mp3 anomaly.
No offense to tabtech and Gary, but I still think that good old AO can sound as least as good as this.
Since Beethoven\'s 5th demo was posted I that know GPO can probably sound a lot better that AO, but I am still not convinced by any of the user demos.
For this price, however, I still might even buy GPO just for the harps or the organ.

JonFairhurst
12-09-2003, 07:32 PM
>> \"Can you PLEASE re-post this demo at 192 kbps mp3? 96 kbps is really too bad and distorted.\"

Peter, you make a good point. I thought that the overall sound sagged under its own weight, but I couldn\'t put my finger on it. It just sounds kind of dead.

I don\'t think the problem I\'m hearing is due to the performance. Possibly a poor mix, but only if some plugins were abused. Yep. I bet the MP3 encoder is causing artifacts at that bitrate. This demo just doesn\'t have the same \"snap\" as the demos on Garritan\'s site.

Just now I listened to this on my cheap soundcard & headphones at work. It sounds much better here than on my studio monitors and pro headphones! The cheap stuff doesn\'t really reveal the mp3 flaws, does it?

Regarding the musical performance though, I\'d say that this is the best GPO user demo I\'ve heard so far. Congratulations on your effort.

Houston Haynes
12-09-2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by PeterRoos:
No offense to tabtech and Gary, but I still think that good old AO can sound as least as good as this. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You\'re kidding, right? images/icons/confused.gif

OK then - I guess we\'ll need to get someone with AO to render this score... images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Alan Lastufka
12-09-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Houston Haynes:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by PeterRoos:
No offense to tabtech and Gary, but I still think that good old AO can sound as least as good as this. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You\'re kidding, right? images/icons/confused.gif

OK then - I guess we\'ll need to get someone with AO to render this score... images/icons/rolleyes.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I got someone to do that with my score,

The links:

GPO:
http://www.alanjoseph.com/OktoberGPOex.mp3 (\"http://www.alanjoseph.com/OktoberGPOex.mp3\")

AO:
http://www.alanjoseph.com/AlanLastufkaOctober_AO.mp3 (\"http://www.alanjoseph.com/AlanLastufkaOctober_AO.mp3\")

AL

Haydn
12-09-2003, 09:02 PM
Tabtech,

I\'m not quite sure where you\'re having the problems with the popping. It could be buffer settings for your sound card or an IRQ conflict. I\'m using Sonar and up to 8 instances of the player or the player and Kontakt with up to 50 instruments loaded with 200 MB free usually in a 1 GB machine. I also have a P4 2.4 GHz machine.

How many watts is the power supply in your computer. Compaq has a tendency to put underpowered supplies in many of their systems. I work in a development lab in which we use computers from various manufacturers. I\'ve had a couple Compaq\'s that couldn\'t even power a 2nd hard drive as the power supplies were only 135 watts. I\'ve also replaced a few power supplies in Compaqs.

BTW, the Beethoven\'s 5th only used just over 512 MB of memory. There were 4 instances loaded with about 30 instruments.

nexus
12-09-2003, 11:25 PM
PeterRoos said:
\"No offense to tabtech and Gary, but I still think that good old AO can sound as least as good as this.\"

I believe you really are serious, aren\'t you? Do you mostly compose at slow tempo? Do you detest any attack in the brasses? Do those eight celli in AO really sound like eight celli to you or could maybe they sound like a cheap GM box?

The point is, AO is not even as good at times as the dreadful EMU Virtuoso 2000 I sweated reprogramming for over a year, to no avail. You know, my dissapointment over AO is what prompted me to through away $1000.00 for the EMU box. I have been looking for such an \"orchestra-in-a-box\"
sketchpad for over a decade now. I believe GPO (and a new fast PC) just may be it. Might just be the best thousand bucks I ever spent!

tabtech
12-10-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Haydn:

...the problems with the popping. It could be buffer settings for your sound card or an IRQ conflict.
...How many watts is the power supply in your computer. Compaq has a tendency to put underpowered supplies in many of their systems.... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">The buffer settings have been a hit and miss proposition. I will experiment with the settings again.

I would even try switching the Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) from ACPI-PC to Standard PC unless there\'s a chance that will make things worse. ACPI assigns all devices to a single IRQ which tends to cause problems with audio. Does anyone know a clean method for doing this?

I would have to shut down and open up my PC to tell you how many watts the power supply is. What should it not be less than?

JonFairhurst
12-10-2003, 01:51 AM
Unless you\'re running multiple processors or are overclocking like a mad scientist, 350W is a good baseline.

If you want to upgrade, here\'s a great supply. It\'s within a few dB of the quietest supplies available, which is my top criteria. Tom\'s Hardware tested it and found it puts out way more juice than its minimum specs on all of the voltage lines. And it\'s relatively cheap :-)

http://store.yahoo.com/directron/fsp35060bn.html (\"http://store.yahoo.com/directron/fsp35060bn.html\")

handz
12-10-2003, 08:47 AM
must agree whit those clever man who said that the old AO do it better....there is no USER demo that can proof me that Im wrong...

robgb
12-10-2003, 09:48 AM
Handz, how about if we make a deal? WE ALL KNOW you don\'t like GPO. You\'ve made this clear at every opportunity. So why don\'t we all just stipulate to that fact and you can withhold any further comments.

PeterRoos
12-10-2003, 11:50 AM
An mp3 demo at 96 kbps does a great disservice to ANY library and to ANY composition. That was what my post was mostly about.

If a recording gets so seriously damaged by overcompressing the data bits (read: throwing out too much sonic details) you can hardly base serious judgements on the library used, be it GPO or AO. I bet even VSL will sound terrible without ambience at this compression level.

At first I thought something was very seriously wrong with the cellos, and it reminded me of some bad samples in GOS. Then I saw in WMP the low streaming rate, which explained the distorted sound.

I am still positively looking out for great user demos - I think Gary\'s Beethoven\'s 5th is a great demo of what you can do with GPO.

And, AO is not really THAT bad. It\'s old and limited, but it still has some very usable patches. I started out with AO and step by step replaced instruments and sections with newer libraries. That was the common approach until GPO, EWQLSO Silver and Opus 1 arrived images/icons/wink.gif (at least for hobbyists and semi-profs).

Maybe I can try to tweak my remarks to something more positive. If Tabtech can somehow send me the mix as a .Wav or .Aif file (or let me access it via the net), I could add some subtle convolution reverb from Ernest and do some mastering with Waves plugins. Then re-post it on my site in 256 kbs format (after tabtech has approved of the result of course). How about that approach? images/icons/smile.gif

I am completely out of my samples budget (lousy time for freelancers), otherwise I already would have bought GPO and could have done some demoing myself.

Cheerio,

PatS
12-10-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by handz:
must agree whit those clever man who said that the old AO do it better....there is no USER demo that can proof me that Im wrong... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">HandZ:

The \"clever man\" (a.k.a., Peter Roos) didn\'t say it sounded better. He said this:

\"I still think that good old AO can sound as [sic] least as good as this.\"

How does one debate this? It\'s a subjective opinion, and I respect it. Some people will agree with Peter, and others will disagree. What\'s the point if I say I prefer the GPO version over the AO version, when you say the opposite? There\'s no fodder for genuine debate (in contrast to the customary ad hominem remarks that fly around here). It\'s just your opinion against mine. Your attempt to bolster your opinion with the misguided claim that musicians prefer Silver while non-musicians (\"newbies,\" as you put it) prefer GPO failed miserably on many levels, unless you were trying to insult real musicians, in which you case you succeeded brilliantly.

Let it go, HandZ. Just let it go.

Pat

PatS
12-10-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by PeterRoos:

Peter
(also a hobbyist dad - I have 4 demos walking around images/icons/grin.gif ) <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Any tips on how to power them down at bedtime? I have three (ages 3, 6.5 and 10). They fight tooth and nail every night to stay up longer. I still can\'t find their power buttons. Wrestling dad for 15 minutes in the living room doesn\'t help (sometimes I\'m the dragon or, for my 3-year-old, the Green Goblin--actually, he says \"Green Globin\"). My wife tells me that only riles them. But I\'m exhausted at the end of our little romp, so why aren\'t they? images/icons/wink.gif

Pat

PeterRoos
12-10-2003, 01:46 PM
Our approach: don\'t have them too close one after the other images/icons/wink.gif Our kids are 5-10-15-19.

The oldest one, my son, has just left the building to live on a campus. And the younger ones (girls) all have their own issues and tempos. So there is no problem with getting the entire bunch to bed. It\'s all out of sync and out of control anyway images/icons/smile.gif

Hardy Heern
12-10-2003, 02:21 PM
As an older man I think I have the answer to your children problem. After hours of study and consideration of the experiences with my own children I conclude that the problems lie in the numbers. I think that the teenage years will make you realise that you have probably had three or four children too many! images/icons/smile.gif

As for tab\'s demo I think the samples sound great but the programming is poor...just not enough expression. I like the idea of emulating an existing piece and that is what I intend to do when I get my GPO going. However, just listen to the strings during the first quarter...all at the same volume. No volume or expression within the held notes or chords either.

Similarly the endings of the notes played end too abrubtly. Try drawing in some volume changes....sometimes lift the vol at the end, sometimes diminish it at the end. If you don\'t you always get this staccato effect. I\'m surprised that you can\'t hear this. More reverb would cover up some of the staccato effect. Try programming the instruments envelope\'s sustain and release a little.

I\'m just swatting up on the manual at the moment and I must say that Tom and Gary have provided one hell of a tool kit....it\'s there to use. To use the artist analogy...try some different size brushes.

Just think about what happens in real life. Would the woodwinds start and finish \'computer\' EXACTLY at the same time? Extend the beginning and end of one note or the other. Dont have them playing at the same volume. Change the volumes internally and differently, detune one slightly.

There is so much more you can do to improve the realism if you have the patience, otherwise be satisfied with the results. It\'s just common sense, experience, practice and perhaps some reading up on some of the articles which discuss this type of thing.

Hang on to Jim Orton\'s (Haydns) Beethoven and the other demos too. These are the real examples of the possibilities of this orchestra by those who have the will to learn the programme and to use it to the full.

Just my opinion.

Frank

tabtech
12-10-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Hardy Heern:
As for tab\'s demo I think the samples sound great but the programming is poor...just not enough expression. I like the idea of emulating an existing piece and that is what I intend to do when I get my GPO going. However, just listen to the strings during the first quarter...all at the same volume. No volume or expression within the held notes or chords either.

Similarly the endings of the notes played end too abrubtly. Try drawing in some volume changes....sometimes lift the vol at the end, sometimes diminish it at the end. If you don\'t you always get this staccato effect. I\'m surprised that you can\'t hear this. More reverb would cover up some of the staccato effect. Try programming the instruments envelope\'s sustain and release a little. ...

Just think about what happens in real life. Would the woodwinds start and finish \'computer\' EXACTLY at the same time? Extend the beginning and end of one note or the other. Dont have them playing at the same volume. Change the volumes internally and differently, detune one slightly.

...
Frank <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I appreciate these comments so much. I agree that the strings needed more dynamics at the beginning, and I actually edited the Mod envelope several times to try and achieve that. I now hear that my editing wasn\'t enough to achieve the desired effect. Quite true - this is nowhere near a polished product. It wasn\'t meant to be in its present form. I was only hoping to offer some inspiration to those still waiting for this wonderful product and don\'t necessarily have the budget for the high-priced spreads.

There are a lot of variables here which is good. Just building a believable woodwinds section takes some critical listening, playing, tweaking, and comparing. After working with the product for a few more months, I may have a better understanding of my preferred sounds, setups, and ways of working. I was a bit disappointed to find that there was no way to choke the timpani, even with a dramatic decrease in volume control it still rings.

I plan on doing a remix of this piece and maybe extend it on to the end of letter D. I will post a link to it here at that time for those interested.

I appreciate everyone\'s feedback and advice. All of you have been more or less helpful; although it did get off track a bit there. Thank you Hardy Heern for bringing us all back. So much for being \'right out of the box\'. I guess it\'s time to get back into the box and dig around some more.

Thomas Bishop

Haydn
12-10-2003, 05:37 PM
Pat,

My 5 year old get tired everynight about 8:00. But I force her to do 15 minutes of reading everynight and that really gets her tired.

The 7 and 9 year olds usually go to bed around 9:00 after they have done at least 15 minutes reading. The reading has a tendency to make them tired. If they don\'t fall asleep, then I use the you don\'t get to play computer tomorrow routine which works everytime!

PeterRoos
12-10-2003, 06:41 PM
Hi Din images/icons/grin.gif

My son (19) likes to talk about politics, science and history with his girlfriend until 6:00 in the morning.

Actually, I hope they\'ll stick to that habit. I\'m 44 now (Hi Bruce ;-) ) and seriously hoping not to become a grandpa too soon graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif

PatS
12-11-2003, 12:16 AM
Peter:

Jim Ortner (Haydn) produced the Beethoven demo. Jim is a hobbyist (and a highly skilled one at that), so one could argue that his demo falls under the \"user demo\" category. Hair splitting, I know. But, at the very least, I wanted to point out that Jim is a regular \"user,\" not a professional (i.e., paid) demo maker.

He\'s also a cool dad and an all-around great guy.

Pat

PeterRoos
12-11-2003, 12:30 AM
Hi Pat,

Well, interesting background info, I wasn\'t aware of that.

Thanks,

Peter
(also a hobbyist dad - I have 4 demos walking around images/icons/grin.gif )

nexus
12-11-2003, 11:44 PM
\"...I am completely out of my samples budget (lousy time for freelancers), otherwise I already would have bought GPO and could have done some demoing myself...\"

I\'m sorry to hear that, I\'ve definitely been there myself! I just sold my old \'sketchpad\' of the EMU unit I mentioned and a JV-1080 with both orchestra cards. That\'s the only way I can afford to upgrade to GPO and EW Silver at this time, so I can sympathize with anyone still stuck with AO. I was a frequent user of AO for a couple of years (it was all I had for awhile) I bought it on a pre-order before it was released and could barely contain myself with anticipation for five months waiting. The day it arrived I was prepared for a mild dissapointment as you have to be with most orchestra libraries, but a couple hours later I was so dissapointed with certain instruments I remember furiously searching sample developer catalogs for any news of a new string product. After wasteing more money on another string library, I eventually just tried to push through with AO and then I got roped into waiting for the \"UPGRADE 97\" b.s. which still offered more lifeless strings (though a little better in some regards).

I respect what Siedlaczak was trying to do, to give us what Gary is doing now, he might have been restrained by mid-nineties technology, who knows?

Btw, there are some nice orchestral products from the past decade. I like you, can no longer afford them or the great new stuff. After this I will just have to be satisfied, but that is why I am so charged about GPO: you CAN live with it a verylong time and produce the music in your heart, I believe.

KingIdiot
12-12-2003, 12:18 AM
if at all anything, al these \"great new libraries\" will show us is that \"talent\" is where its at. It will show ith GPO as well (even tho I think its a great new library too), as long as we\'ll all realize that GPO is a great tool and CAN sound quite nice, the same that silver can or opus.

The fact that affordable GOOD sounding libraries are available pisses me off, and makes me so happy at the same time. There will be alot of movement in MUSIC MAKING now, rather than sample lust....

atleast I hope.

PeterRoos
12-12-2003, 04:08 AM
Hi Nexus,

I\'m lucky that I could eventually replace all of my AO instruments ;-) My website lists the libraries I have bought since 2000, when I started out with this unwise orchestral sampling hobby (wise from a passion perspective, very unwise financially images/icons/wink.gif ).

Thomas (tabtech),
A few replies back I offered some help with running your cue through an impulse verb, a little mastering, hosting of a larger mp3, etc. Just let me know if you want to try that.

Cheers,