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dorme1
12-02-2003, 01:02 PM
Alright I just got GPO yesterday and found this midi file on the net (I WISH I could program this good!) anyways I just thought I\'d render it and put it up, sounds pretty good to me, this is with nothing done to it, just loaded the midi file and assigned the instruments 2 violins, a viola and a bass (or did I use a cell0?) anyways here you go, it\'s canon2

http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/hcentral2000/lst?&.dir=/uploads&.src=bc&.view=l (\"http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/hcentral2000/lst?&.dir=/uploads&.src=bc&.view=l\")

Ian Dorsch
12-02-2003, 01:11 PM
Is it just me, or does the intonation give anyone else the willies once you get to about halfway through the piece?

PeterRoos
12-02-2003, 01:23 PM
With all respect for your intentions, but I think this demo will scare away people from this library. I think it sounds terrible...

Simon Ravn
12-02-2003, 01:24 PM
I don\'t like animal cruelty. Especially not to cats.

(Not dissing the library here, just the rendition - and the viola tuning).

JudasCloud
12-02-2003, 01:26 PM
It sounds like General Midi.

PeterRoos
12-02-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by JudasCloud:
It sounds like General Midi. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Did this general compose Canons? images/icons/tongue.gif
Can\'t wait to hear his War Suite

yannitch
12-02-2003, 01:32 PM
it sounds to me like this is just a very poorly programmed midi file. No dynamics and no feel (tempo-wise). One thing that erked me the most was the tremelo, and how it is just the same for every note. Horrible. There\'s a way to vary that with controls, right? I must say, though, the actual sound of the individual notes are very good, just not in the context of the intire song. And yeah, very poorly mixed ...

Jeff Hurchalla
12-02-2003, 02:20 PM
Hi dorme1,

There seems to be some problems in this demo file. The problems might be caused by some setting in your sequencer or bad information in the midi file you used.

I\'m doing a run through all the solo string patches now just to be sure a bug wasn\'t introduced into the player with one of the last NI updates. Could you email to me the patches you used - jeff@marblesound.com? This would be a great help.

Thanks!

Jeff

J. Whaley
12-02-2003, 02:41 PM
Reminds me of my best friend getting stood up at the alter - don\'t know why.....

JudasCloud
12-02-2003, 05:15 PM
I wonder if he recieved a pm from some one on the Garritan team telling him to take it down...

robgb
12-02-2003, 05:18 PM
We\'re talking Garritan, Judas. He doesn\'t work that way.

agarner32
12-02-2003, 05:36 PM
Inspite of the fact that I hate that piece (played too many weddings as a younger pianist) it was nice to hear the strings exposed like that. I was able to hear the potential of the string sounds by not judging the programming or musical aspect of how it was played. I\'m impressed by the string sounds in general and this short-lived mp3 certainly didn\'t change that. So for whatever it\'s worth to the person who posted it, thanks--I think!

Aaron

Hardy Heern
12-02-2003, 05:44 PM
Sorry Dorme 1, I\'m afraid I couldn\'t find the file. However, you just can\'t take any old MIDI file and assign instruments to it from any library and expect it to sound like anything decent (unless it\'s a keyboard instrument and even then it will not be perfectly dedicated to the particular samples). It will play but it will not present your samples to the best of their ability.

I can\'t believe that there are so many folk spending this sort of money and more and believing that they can sit at a keyboard and play in a string section or any non-keyboard instrument with any sort of realism. I find it frustrating and almost laughable that users actually expect satisfactory results using this short cut method. You get the returns of the efforts you put into it in this endeavour I\'m afraid.

Playing even $3000 libraries in this way you can rest assured that it will sound like ! You have to put in hours of tweaking (MIDI adjustments) to achieve realistic results.

Sorry.

Frank

Jeff Hurchalla
12-02-2003, 05:47 PM
There seems to be a bug in the solo strings tuning, and we\'re working out the issue right now. Rest assured we\'ll quickly iron out the issues and update everyone!

If the cannon sounded strange, keep in mind - it\'s composed entirely of the solo strings which appear to have a tuning bug. There are sometimes unknown bugs during the early release of a product, and this may well be one. Something so basic as tuning would be easy to fix in any patch and would make a huge, huge difference in the sound of this piece.

PeterRoos
12-02-2003, 05:48 PM
Edit:

I reposted the sample mp3 file here from my PC\'s cache, but I was kindly requested by the GPO team to withdraw it.

There seems to be a problem with the NI software, that may be responsible for the tuning problems that we were all reacting to in this thread.

:-)

JudasCloud
12-02-2003, 05:51 PM
You didn\'t tweak that one a little?

dnortana
12-02-2003, 05:54 PM
In addition, let\'s not forget that there is a fundamental reason why GPO will not properly replay a standard midi file constructed for \'standard\' instruments.

In a standard midi file, instrument volume is cc7, pan is cc10, vibrato might be cc1, and so forth. And Velocity controls note volume.

In GPO, velocity controls attack (not note volume), and cc1 controls instrument volume and timbre. And GPO needs cc64 to get into legato mode where appropriate ... and so forth.

A standard midi file needs to be \'translated\' to speak GPO\'s language. To a first order, I have done this by transforming note velocity into cc1 data, which I add to the track for each instrument. Then one needs to work with the attacks themselves (note velocities). Then there is legato .... Well, you all get the point.

Trond

PeterRoos
12-02-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by JudasCloud:
You didn\'t tweak that one a little? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Mmm, our forum IS sinking...
Are you seriously thinking I would tweak this first before posting, just for fun ?

Dohhhh

Ian Dorsch
12-02-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Jeff Hurchalla:
There seems to be a bug in the solo strings tuning, and we\'re working out the issue right now. Rest assured we\'ll quickly iron out the issues and update everyone!<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s good to know. There were some truly stomach-churning moments in that mp3. You guys rule for getting on it so quickly. Still looking most forward to my copy of GPO. images/icons/grin.gif

robgb
12-02-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by PeterRoos:
Edit:

I reposted the sample mp3 file here from my PC\'s cache, but I was kindly requested by the GPO team to withdraw it.

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I stand corrected...

Scherzo
12-02-2003, 08:44 PM
This sample was at least a slight indication. It would still be nice if some better quality samples of string quartets were posted, though.

dorme1
12-02-2003, 10:45 PM
Whoa rough crowd in here! images/icons/grin.gif First of all, I never actually heard the whole thing through (I was rushing to try to get something up for the people who wanted to hear a string quartet) the first 1:30 sounded alright so I THOUGHT that the whole thing would work out. BOY WAS I WRONG! I threw it on my mp3 player and listened to it at work and y\'know those moments where you feel like this big . well that was one of them. I\'m really having a lot of fun with GPO, and didn\'t mean for any of this to happen. As soon as I realized what happened, I took the file down. Sorry to have wasted anyones time if they listened to that garbage and hopefully this didn\'t steer anyone away from GPO. It really is a great library and hopefully someone with their own programming skills (like Alan) can post a demo deserving of what GPO has to offer....and for those who realized what I trying to do, thanks for not being so harsh...and it was JUST a NOT TWEAKED at all general midi file (yeah I\'m THAT new to this) so yeah...not so much a reflection on the library, just the dumbass using it images/icons/grin.gif

Ian Dorsch
12-03-2003, 12:24 AM
Well, it may not have been the best demo in the world, but...you were pretty much single-handedly responsible for revealing a significant bug in GPO, which will now be fixed. So that\'s cool. images/icons/wink.gif

dorme1
12-03-2003, 01:06 AM
maybe I have a career in beta testing! (just kidding)

yannitch
12-03-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by dnortana:
In addition, let\'s not forget that there is a fundamental reason why GPO will not properly replay a standard midi file constructed for \'standard\' instruments.

In a standard midi file, instrument volume is cc7, pan is cc10, vibrato might be cc1, and so forth. And Velocity controls note volume.

In GPO, velocity controls attack (not note volume), and cc1 controls instrument volume and timbre. And GPO needs cc64 to get into legato mode where appropriate ... and so forth.

A standard midi file needs to be \'translated\' to speak GPO\'s language. To a first order, I have done this by transforming note velocity into cc1 data, which I add to the track for each instrument. Then one needs to work with the attacks themselves (note velocities). Then there is legato .... Well, you all get the point.

Trond <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">This is a really good thing to know. Thanks! Does the included manual explain all of this kinda stuff, or is there some place on the web where it\'s available?

Haydn
12-03-2003, 10:42 AM
The manual has a whole section on the use of the controllers.

It\'s very important that all GPO users read the manual from cover to cover or you will not get the best results from the library. I know that many users just like to load and play but in this case, you really need to read the manual.

Gary put a large amount of time into the manual.

Headcheese
12-03-2003, 02:02 PM
Is the manual in PDF format - I think posting the manual would answer many of these questions. Plus it would prevent a lot more (since those of us waiting for GPO would have nothing else to do but read the manual)

It would reduce the torture of waiting for some of us. And it would help many others trying to decide whether to buy.

Little Boy Blu
12-04-2003, 08:34 AM
This was a bug I encountered when I first started playing with GPO, as I write for a local string quartet and really wanted to play with these sounds. Besides the viola, Cello 3 is also quite out of tune in its higher register. It was quite disconcerting.

However, the quality of the solo string sounds and the realism of the sustained tones where you hear the bow change is fantastic! You can truly hear the difference between the different instruments (Strad, Gagli, etc.) . I know I\'ll get flack for the following comment, but despite the tuning issues (that sound like they are being fixed), I really like the sounds of these strings over the Dan Dean strings that I have. And that\'s at a fraction of the DD price too images/icons/grin.gif ...

Marko
12-04-2003, 09:54 AM
These string pieces were done with the Kirk Hunter Solo Strings library (with supplemental pizz on the violin and viola from the Dan Dean library).

http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/string_theory_by_M_Drost.mp3 (\"http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/string_theory_by_M_Drost.mp3\")
http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/Hallucination_by_M_Drost.mp3 (\"http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/Hallucination_by_M_Drost.mp3\")
http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/TurkeyChasebyMDrost.mp3 (\"http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/TurkeyChasebyMDrost.mp3\")
http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/string_theory2__by_M_Drost.mp3 (\"http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/string_theory2__by_M_Drost.mp3\")

In case you want to hear the samples differently this last one is recorded dry:
http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/PastoraleInterrupted_M.Drost.mp3 (\"http://www.planetcanadice.com/Music/PastoraleInterrupted_M.Drost.mp3\")

I wonder how the strings on the GPO compare to the KHSS? Does anyone own both of these libraries?

Marko

yannitch
12-04-2003, 10:49 AM
Well it\'s easy to hear the difference. They are both pretty good, just different. I\'d say that GPO is definately not as aggressive and upfront sounding. I found that some of the violins on this KHSS library sound like they\'re sitting in a tunnel or something. The pizz from Dan Dean is pretty dramtic. One of the reasons why I chose GPO over the EWQL silver (which is almost the same price) is because it handled softer playing much better - and that\'s the style I\'m most concerned with.

kensuguro
12-04-2003, 10:53 AM
I\'ve recieved GPO. Sorry, don\'t have a demo to post in reply to the comparison.. but I\'ll just tell you right off that you won\'t be able to do tunes like the ones you posted with GPO. GPO strings generally have very slow attack, and you barely hear the \"bite\" in any of the strings. Short bows have pretty slow attacks too. Imagine playing 8th beat detache at 80bpm. I think GPO was intended for more mellow stuff. Perhaps there are going to be upgrades. Personally, I was expecting more \"bite\" in the stronger velocity layers.

Jeff Hurchalla
12-04-2003, 11:38 AM
Hi Kensuguro,
Almost all instruments in GPO (aside from patches like piano and organ), allow you to radically alter attacks via velocity: if you hit notes aggressively on your keyboard, you\'ll hear aggressive attacks. Likewise, if you play with a light touch, the notes will start gently. This sensitivity might be what you\'re missing.

Haydn
12-04-2003, 11:56 AM
The Beethoven\'s 5th that I did has mostly short bow 8th notes played at around 170-180 bpm. I did not notice slow attacks. Harder velocities will dig into the strings more. The sustain+short bows will also get a pretty heavy attack at higher velocities. Make sure your keyboard controller is sending out all velocity levels. I usually vary the sensitivity on my keyboard depending on how loud the passage is.

Marko
12-04-2003, 01:38 PM
I can\'t find any aggressive staccato strings to do fast running lines in the entire Garritan Orch Strings library! The staccato samples themselves seem very slow to respond (in fact I think I hear wavering vibrato in them) and the spiccato seem rather anemic. The nicest staccato style strings are the SulTasto/ Sautille, but these are rather soft and don\'t lend themselves to doing fast robust string runs.

Are there aggressive attacks within the solo strings of GPO?

If Garritan is coming out with a solo strings library I would be extremely reluctant to try it given the lack of aggressive violins in Garritan String Orch. I\'ve worked with his orchestral strings library for a while and I can\'t find a way to make fast string runs with it. My comments are about the violins in particular. There are some good aggressive viola, cello, and contrabass samples.


When I first started using the KHSS, I was delighted because of the many velocity layers that enable one to dig in and play very expressively and dynamically. The violin and cello especially.

Jeff Hurchalla
12-04-2003, 01:59 PM
Hi Marko,
I wish I was more familiar with all the patches and settings in GOS (I know MaestroTools and GPO far better) so that I could tell you what will help produce the best runs. Simon Burgess has a nice demo on the Garritan mp3 section of very fast runs using short bows, so at least in principle it should be possible.

http://www.garritan.com/mp3/hasenGOS.mp3 (\"http://www.garritan.com/mp3/hasenGOS.mp3\")

For GPO, you can get aggressive attacks in solo strings by using using velocity control - playing harder on your keyboard will give you more aggressive attacks, and playing lighter will give you softer attacks. The solo strings in GPO are versatile and cover most of the bases, but the upcoming solo strings library of course goes much further, especially in expression and dynamics. Until then, (as you know) there\'s KHSS, DDSS, which are both quite nice.

Marko
12-04-2003, 04:41 PM
Thanks Jeff.

Ian Dorsch
12-04-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by kensuguro:
GPO strings generally have very slow attack, and you barely hear the \"bite\" in any of the strings. Short bows have pretty slow attacks too. Imagine playing 8th beat detache at 80bpm. I think GPO was intended for more mellow stuff. Perhaps there are going to be upgrades. Personally, I was expecting more \"bite\" in the stronger velocity layers. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Ken, I am assuming you\'re using your Triton as the controller...? I\'ve found with my Triton that at the default velocity curve you have to beat the living snot out of the keyboard to consistently get MIDI velocities of 120-127. It works okay with the onboard sounds, but not as well with my Roland gear or with Kontakt. I changed the velocity curve to a more responsive setting and it\'s worked much better. I wonder if that might help you get some of the faster attacks in GPO.

Frodo
12-07-2003, 01:28 AM
Ian (or anyone else who may know the answer),

I\'m still trying to learn this whole sampling business so please give me grace here--but would you have any idea how I would change the \"velocity curve\" on a Roland XP50? Yes, I know it\'s a dinosaur, but it\'s all I have right now and it still serves its purpose pretty well. I\'ve checked the manual but could find nothing and I\'ve not had much help with Roland\'s customer service in the past. Any wisdom on the issue would be greatly appreciated. images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks!

Frodo