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Garritan
11-01-2003, 01:47 PM
I am pleased to present the first GPO demos! Thanks to Duncan Brinsmead, Jim Ortner, Frank Spitznagel and Tom Hopkins for preparing these demos.

These demos will give you an idea of some of the capabilities of Personal Orchestra right \"out-of-the-box\". The instrumentation in these demos ranges from large symphony orchestrations, to a small ragtime band, to an concert pipe organ solo.

Everything you hear in these demos is from Garritan Personal Orchestra. No other libraries were used and no EQ nor external processing was applied Everything was loaded, played, sequenced and mixed on each of the performer\'s personal computer. The integrated Kontakt player by Native Instruments was used as a plug-in the performer\'s sequencer (Sonar, Cubasis, Logic). The Ambience reverb plug-in that is bundled with Personal Orchestra was used in the mix for all these demos. These demos also show many of the expressive controls available such as Mod Wheel expression/dynamics, alternating up and down bows, the legato feature, tongued and slurred choices in the winds, and portamento.

Here are the links:

http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Magic-Flute-Overture.mp3 (\"http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Magic-Flute-Overture.mp3\")
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/New-World-Symphony.mp3 (\"http://www.garritan.com/mp3/New-World-Symphony.mp3\")
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Beethoven-5thSymphony.mp3 (\"http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Beethoven-5thSymphony.mp3\")
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/EasyWinners-Ragtime.mp3 (\"http://www.garritan.com/mp3/EasyWinners-Ragtime.mp3\")
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Bach-Toccata.mp3 (\"http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Bach-Toccata.mp3\")


Here is the link to the demo section of my website where you can find out the instrumentation and more information about the demos.

http://www.garritan.com/mp3.html (\"http://www.garritan.com/mp3.html\")

These are the first of many demos that will be posted. We will be also posting the accompanying MIDI files and templates.

Shameless Plug: GPO gives you a full orchestra of sounds, the Kontakt player, Overture notation, Cubasis VST 4.0 and the Ambience reverb plug-in - all this for $249.

Hope you enjoy!

Gary Garritan
www.personalorchestra.com (\"http://www.personalorchestra.com\")

MarcDerell
11-01-2003, 02:19 PM
The demos are really cool, esp Beethoven\'s fifth. One thing I missed in Magic Flute is it\'s loudness. It\'s damn quiet compared to the others. But the tracks show a great sounding classical orchestra. Hope you\'re presenting more powerful ones soon - may it be Hollywood-like or Wagner or whatever. images/icons/smile.gif

It\'s surely going to be a great tool for music students - and will fit quite nice on my laptop for \"on the fly\" composing images/icons/smile.gif

crr
11-01-2003, 03:05 PM
Very, very cool!
I\'m so happy, I didn\'t think you can give us a so good orchestra with only 249$!
thank you very much
Michael

dorme1
11-01-2003, 03:38 PM
I can\'t wait! this is going to be so great!!!!

Not Dudley Simpson
11-01-2003, 03:39 PM
On the basis of these demos, you, Mr Garritan, may well become known as the Louis Pasteur of sampled orchestral music. Superb work from all concerned.

It will indeed be fascinating to see how this will affect the market. Listening to the demos, I was reminded of a Hollywood story: Mike Nichols had produced Catch 22 in 1970 for millions and millions of dollars. One afternoon, he took his co-producer to check out another anti-war film that had just opened, a little, inexpensive flick called MASH. They bought their tickets and sat in the theatre, confident that their movie would remain unassailable. About halfway though, Nichols turned to his producer and whispered \"We\'re f---ed.\" And indeed they were. Now, I don\'t really expect the same thing will happen with other sample developers images/icons/wink.gif . The fact is, all these libraries will co-exist and compliment each other beautifully. But GPO WILL make those developers think.

I also suspect that GPO will be used by pros to a rather greater extent than previously thought. I\'m a media composer and producer in London, and will have no hesitation in using it. The big guys in LA will use (some of) it just for the hell of it. But perhaps most importantly, cash-strapped schools and colleges will use it to introduce kids to a new world of sound. Wonderful news and an advancement for the wider culture.

Thanks to you and your team. Things can only get better.

Heath

P.S. Catch 22 turned out to be as much of a classic as MASH, and now we can enjoy them both.

Leon Willett
11-01-2003, 04:36 PM
I\'m impressed at these demos, Gary. Well done on your project! I can see hundreds of sales on the horizon. I won\'t be getting this since I have my template covered, but I feel this is a no-brainer for anyone interested in starting to compose orchestral music.

You know, what really has my mouth open is that someone actually mocked up the entire first movement of Beethoven\'s 5th! What a huge feat!

GeorgeDaae
11-01-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Garritan:
Shameless Plug: GPO gives you a full orchestra of sounds, the Kontakt player, Overture notation, Cubasis VST 4.0 and the Ambience reverb plug-in - all this for $249.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, what can I say?
Actually nothing, because my jaw lays in pieces on the floor so all I can do is type.

Thank you Mr. Garritan for this wonderfull offer. My $249 will soon be yours. And I\'m looking for it images/icons/smile.gif

Houston Haynes
11-01-2003, 11:47 PM
I also suspect that GPO will be used by pros to a rather greater extent than previously thought. I\'m a media composer and producer in London, and will have no hesitation in using it. The big guys in LA will use (some of) it just for the hell of it. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Speed rules.

ed buller
11-02-2003, 12:29 AM
\"and they said I was crazy to build a castle on a swamp !\"
images/icons/grin.gif

RickD
11-02-2003, 09:53 AM
Incredible Gary and Tom!!

I have to admit I expected it to be good, but not this good!! I\'m going to enjoy this for a long time.

Rick

bigbaby987
11-02-2003, 10:50 AM
gary this is phenomenal!!! i will be one of your customers!! i would just like to know about the use of overture notation. did any of the demo performers use it a all? how well does it work with the notation program as a stand alone? i would love to know. nonetheless, i will definitely be picking up such a worthy library for such a reasonable price.

BRAVO!!!!

Veron
11-02-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by MarcDerell:
Hope you\'re presenting more powerful ones soon - may it be Hollywood-like or Wagner or whatever. images/icons/smile.gif
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I hope so too images/icons/smile.gif
I would really like to hear a Hollywood-like demo too .

Veron

Alan Lastufka
11-02-2003, 01:09 PM
Thanks for posting Mr. Garritan!

Can\'t wait for it to begin shipping (and for the expansion packs).

Should prove to be a wonderful tool...

AL

Damon
11-02-2003, 01:23 PM
Congratulations Gary! I think it\'s wonderful you made such a great library for such a great price. The \"New World Symphony\" demo sounded great to my ears.
I wish you much success on this! images/icons/smile.gif

IGOR
11-02-2003, 02:11 PM
I would really like to hear a Hollywood-like demo too . <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes, why not, but I would like to congratulate the GPO team, not only for making such a great product at such a affordable price, but also to think about musicians, which are not only looking for the so called \"Hollywood\" sound. It is not my purpose to criticize other libraries, but to often the demos are kind of reminding some Spielberg movies....

Gulliver
11-02-2003, 02:35 PM
Great achievement.

It reminds me of what Roland did when they squeezed their infamous orchestral library into the expansion cards for their JV/XP modules. Did the cards sound as good as the original library? Of course not, but that was not the point. The point was to make an affordable substitute without excessively watering down the sounds.

This should be a fantastic learning tool for many students out there.

esperlad
11-02-2003, 03:38 PM
The demos sound really good. I really enjoyed the Joplin work.

Can anyone tell me where to find the list of articulations?

Phileosophos
11-02-2003, 04:11 PM
Wow. You\'ve obviously done it again. You\'ve already sold me on the GOS library, and you can bet I\'ll buy a copy the day it is available for Kontakt. In the meantime, you can bet I\'ll buy a copy of GPO as soon as it ships. Great products, great prices. Your company is going to be HUGE. Let us all know when you go public images/icons/smile.gif

Litz
11-03-2003, 01:51 AM
New to this forum, but I just checked out the demos for this library. With the exception of a few great VSL demos done by VERY experienced demo artists, many things about these demos are as impressive as anything I\'ve heard on the Vienna site. That\'s $5000 versus $249. Sure, you\'re palette is huge with VSL, but how much of that does one even have time to go through. The ragtime piece for GPO is unbelievable - the band is right there in my living room. There seems to be a slight lacking in the brass sounds for the orchestral pieces, and if that\'s true all you have to do is get another unbelievable deal in the SAM Brass Bundle (which I\'ve used by themselves to serious impress some clients) and it seems to me that you\'d be seriously set for a total of $500. Between Sam Horns and GPO, all running as Kontakt plug-ins....man! Easy, efficient, inexpensive, and impressive! I\'m in - and I can\'t wait to experience my newfound workflow!

Litz

E minor
11-03-2003, 07:42 AM
Hey. . . I don’t want to be the sour grape. . . let’s face it, for the money you can’t beat it, and I would recommend it to anyone! Unfortunately for myself, it will cost $700.00 dollars in my currency to get my system up to par regarding RAM. I, unfortunately, have an expensive type of RAM. This means that getting my system on line is going to cost more than twice as much as the library. This is most unfortunate to say the least.

That said, I wasn’t very impressed with the “Contrabass” or Double bass if you prefer. Sounded more like a “solo” instrument than a “body” of strings. It will be interesting to hear some demos with solo strings. The one demo “The Easy Winners” had a solo Strad, but was somewhat overpowered by everything else - was hard to hear the quality or lack thereof because of this.

Haydn
11-03-2003, 11:33 AM
E Minor,

How much RAM do you have currently? You can always bounce tracks if you need more instruments which is how I\'ve always worked in Giga. Couldn\'t even do a whole string section in Giga without bouncing. Just think of all the money you save purchasing this library. It leaves a lot for hardware upgrades.

E minor
11-03-2003, 01:59 PM
256 megs of Rambus, which they tell me is equivalent to 512 of the regular stuff. Not sure if this came from the guy who sold it to me, or an impartial third party. images/icons/confused.gif

With Christmas coming on and everything - what better thing to ask for! My wife gave me a flute one year. I don’t play the flute, so I’d like to ask for this rather than risk getting a clarinet or something this year, which again, I don’t play?

The dilemma that I’m in is: what good is this going to be if I can’t use it. Most of my music is orchestral, and acquiring this would be with a view to using it in connection with the orchestral stuff.

what to do. . . what to do.

Alan Lastufka
11-03-2003, 02:23 PM
E Minor,

I have the same ram type (RDRAM PC1066) and it does cost an arm and a leg for it (and it has to be added in pairs which makes it even worse).

The statement that it is the same as 512 is BS, however, this type of ram does kick *** and the upgrade will be worth it.

Even if you just double it to 512 (by adding two sticks of 128) this should be enough for this library. They are billing it as a library that is able to run completely out of RAM on a laptop and 512 is the standard for audio laptops.

I have 768MB of RDRAM PC1066 and this has been capable of running 40 audio tracks at 24-bit (so 512 should have no prob running samples).

Hope this helps,

AL

Ted Vanya
11-03-2003, 05:16 PM
Garry is getting so much of the well-deserved glory that I will not say a word about his GPO. But..
Let\'s hear it for the guys who made the demos!

Beautifull, and lots of work!

My hat is off.

Ted

Cody
11-03-2003, 08:54 PM
I just listened to the VSL Bach Demo and then listened to the Magic Flute demo on GPO to see for myself. While the VSL demo does sound amazing it had been doctored with a lot of processing. It describes it at the VSL site. On the other hand the GPO demo was strictly done with what GPO has onboard. And I was still pretty blown away with GPO too. You just can\'t beat the price. And who knows what we may be able to turn out with additional signal processing. I ordered my copy today.

KingIdiot
11-03-2003, 09:06 PM
GPO is not meant to compete with the \"mega libraries\"

I really think the people doing this are setting themselves up for a fall.

GPO\'s greatness comes from the fact that its cheaper than some of the \"cheap\" orchestral libs, and its 10x better in the realm of programming and usability. AND that its not trying to compete with the other libs.

Its like this part of the market has been ignored for A LONG time.

I\'m not part of the beta team on GPO, so I dont know where its gone in the past 4 months or so in the sound realm. I\'ve talked with Gary about it in the early stages tho. (and I still think you need to release a KI Strings subset to GOS and cut me in on the profits ;P )

I originally balked at the idea of a \"simple library\". I thought it was \"not for me\". I still think that to a point, but I WOULD use GPO because I can compose on the road, or in bed on a laptop, and get a \"good enough\" sound.

I would of course use the bigger libs if needed for a \"Better\" sound.

you guys saying that this library is going to make a difference in the price of the mega libraries or prices of libraries in general, are really missing the point of the mega libraries AND of GPO. Different products.

I do think that this will open doors for people to steal innovative programming techniques and make their own libs. Some of the stuff used in this lib is stuff I\'ve been talking to Gary about for 3 years now. So yes it may change some development styles, and open a whole new market of SPECIFICALLY DESIGNES GOOD BUT CHEAP PRODUCTS, that will destroy the terrible \"lite\" market that is still IMO, one of the worst things for people starting out. \"here\'s a half assed version of our product, enjoy\"

dcornutt
11-04-2003, 12:13 AM
Well said KI.

sri_bubba
11-04-2003, 02:42 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingIdiot:
[QB] GPO is not meant to compete with the \"mega libraries\"

King!! You\'re back!!!

Welcome, this is great, you came back!

How do I say this without seeming stupid or syncophantic...it really is good to see you post again.

bosone
11-04-2003, 03:31 AM
i just listened to the demo and indeed they sound REALLY good!
the only one that disappointed me was the beethoven\'s one... its midi sequence is not sog ood in my opinion, expecially the intro sound really faked and unnatural.
but the other are very realistic.

Hardy Heern
11-04-2003, 06:07 PM
Doh, ray, me, ......fah..KingIdiot! ¦:^)

Welcome back.

GPO isn’t competing with mega libraries it is scuppering them.

I think you\'re wrong about the success of GPO being due to cheapness! At MP3 demo level the sound quality is utterly close to the Mega libraries....Close enough for most. Any audible sample difference has been surpassed by the demonstrator’s programming skills in conjunction with Tom’s programming innovations. (God I love his Easy Winners).

I don\'t think that the bigger libes DO have a hugely better sound. Of course the sounds (individually) are better, but not much, and GPO is close enough once the instruments are combined. The ease of programming of GPO and the immediacy, which it allows, offset most of the sound advantages the mega libes have. Life’s too short for programming the mega libes…..I’m 58…I know! ¦:^)

The GPO demos are stunning....I just don\'t think anyone needs much better. We all listen with a very critical ear these days and I have to say that the Beethoven’s Fifth demo, just for example, is hard to fault. In the whole piece there was about 2 seconds where I thought that it could, perhaps, be improved. The opening, for example, (which everyone knows backwards) is UTTERLY realistic IMHO.

I think YOU are missing the point. GPO is a watershed design. I agree that GPO and Mega libraries are different programmes. Yes, GPO is a NEW and innovative programme, which will create its own market. To use a motor racing analogy it is the first rear engined car in a field of front engined ones!

Surely, mock-ups of the quality of the demos are good enough for the pros to get the contracts? The final move is to a symphony orchestra…. right? Innovative composition, at this level, is far more important. Or, have we reached the point where the film final production music is performed with samples? I\'m not in the business so I don\'t know the answer to that. If this IS the case, though, then it probably is worth the extra money to spend on programmers tweaking Mega libes up to ‘real orchestra’ standard.

I think that your insinuation that GPO is only suitable for ‘on the road, or in bed or on a laptop’ is misleading. It’s WAY better than that…..Listen again, without bias, to the demos.

I’m a Design Engineer who gets involved in innovation. I sympathise, but don’t understand your comment about stealing innovative programming techniques. It’s called ‘building on the last new idea’ and has been going on since time immoral! ¦:^) Unless your ideas were made in confidence, I’m afraid you don’t have any complaint. It’s a cruel world…..trust me……..

I ordered my GPO tonight. Brilliant!

Frank

KingIdiot
11-04-2003, 06:56 PM
thats just it, you\'re looking at it from one POV, and saying that because YOU wont need more that it will kill the other libs.

Isn\'t it a bit presumptuous to think that all composers will be doing is composing for full orchestras all the time and ultimately always going live?

whats \"good enough\" varies from person to person.

my poitn being that I think its a bit wrong to think this library will kill the market for all other libraries, or that users that use these \"mega libraries\" are goign to want to kill themselves because of GPO.

The only thing I\'ve ever learned is that there is a use for all the libraries out there. I have some of the early GPO stuff, and I know how useful it will be to alot of people (even myself, as I still use some of the alpha stuff)

but again, surely you cant think that just because its good enough for you, its good enough for other people. If that were the case AO would have been enough for many still. (dont take this as a GPO vs AO thing, because I dont discuss that banal type of topic anymore, just stating that enough isnt even enough for everyone)

GPO will sell like hotcakes, first and foremost because of price vs quality. if it weren\'t for the price part, people would have to still make a \"choice\", at the current price point, its more like SAM, a \"no brainer\".

Lastly, how do you know that GPO will be easier to use than other mega libs? There are people out there that cant get a good sound out of GOS because of the programming options, people who cant use the KI strings I made, which I designed to make \"easy\" (and I think are easy to use, and looks like many of the GPO instruments use some of the same concepts).

oh... and because the demos sound good, doesn\'t mean you\'ll be able to sound good with it. That goes for EVERY DAMN LIBRARY OUT THERE.

I say this because I AM looking at it with an unbiased eye/ear.

I\'m not trying to take away any of the praise Gary\'s getting. He\'s done a great thing here by making this lib. He\'s upped the quality again, and made himself king of a specific market again. and possibly making a new one.

I also dont want to put the praise solely on Gary. I know how much work Tom has done on this project. He\'s really the man behind this library and why it will be so good. I know what he\'s done in the programming, and his \"programming\" mind is one of the few that I feel can understand my own. Without Tom, a library like GPO would not exist, period.

Also Jeff is a big part of this library. As is Crispin. Not to mention the beta guys who have been eager to help Gary.

My comment on stealing ideas is about how the other developers will take the ideas and the sampling world will be a better place, not that anyone stole ideas from me....

tho now that I type this, one could say that some concepts I\'ve developed and spoken to Gary about may have had a part in inspiring development ideas. So screw Tom, thank me and only me. Without me, a library like GPO would not exist. Gary I\'ll expect residual checks in the mail.

astrt4
11-04-2003, 10:21 PM
hmmm... I think the demos sound fairly good, but I wouldn\'t have said that they ever sound real to me. I think the price point is great and that it should and will sell well. But there are demos that I hear of VSL and EWQLSO that sound absolutely convincing. This being said, I\'m picking GPO up for use on my notebook.

I\'d like to hear some demos of GPO that focus on its strengths (as well as a bit more brass and woodwind stuff). While many composers want to bend the libraries to their own styles, others treat libraries more like instruments and adapt their music as such. I\'ve never had a problem with library developers not mocking up existing pieces but rather composing new works that focus on the strengths. Depending on the goal, that can be just as legit.

LHall
11-05-2003, 12:13 AM
I don\'t regret buying EWQLSO. I don\'t I don\'t I don\'t really I don\'t.

I\'ve been getting great results with EW, but I can\'t get my hands on this fast enough! In addition to being a complete orch for most people, it\'s also an incredible augmentation for the EWQLSO. Why? because with EW I didn\'t get a piano, or a pipe organ, or two harpsichords, or several assorted solo violins, or any solo violas at all! Or many other things that GPO gives you.

Yeah, fine. You gotta add artificial ambience to this. But I\'m finding you can really get away with that effectively when you\'re mixing it in with samples that have release trails.

Enjoyed talking to you the other day Gary. I\'ll defititely be using this pipe organ on the project I\'m working on.

Thanks,
Larry

Rico
11-05-2003, 04:12 AM
Apart from the fact that I really like the idea with GPO and have high hopes for it - something that really shows the genuine care for customers is that Gary announced that there will be MIDI-files and stuff for the demos. This is IMHO maybe the thing I lack most from the stuff I have listened to and tried so far. To listen to a demo on a product\'s site and then be able to see how they used the library to achieve that specific sound or style will be a killer for me.

My compliments for GPO and the efforts surrounding it!

Best Regards,
Rico

Jeff Turner
11-05-2003, 10:32 AM
I\'m brand new to the world of samples and am learning a lot by reading everypne\'s posts. From my novice perspective on the various available libraries, what\'s happening with the GPO seems similiar to what I\'ve seen in the past. 20 years ago the Synclavier was THE computer musical instrument to have. It was extremely expensive to own and only a small percentage of musician/composers could own one. It produced the most realistic sounds available at that time, but now it\'s gone. They went out of business. Other companies built consumer priced samplers which were inspired by the Synclavier and they thrived.

I see the same scenario happening again. The mega sample libraries available now are out of the price range for many musicians. The GPO has set a new direction for samples. The GPO might not have the complete set of articulations that the other libraries have, but who knows what will happen next year. Gary has proven that he is a forward thinker and not satisfied with the status quo. I predict that if the other libraries keep with their current trend in pricing, they\'ll find themselves in the same place as New England Digital.

Jeff Turner

E minor
11-05-2003, 02:18 PM
Alan Lastufka. . . if you are still monitoring this thread.


You wouldn’t be considering purchasing the GPO would you?

The reason I ask is because I would be interested in knowing if this worked out on your system, with the 768 MB of RAM. If it did, upgrading to 768 MB is something that I might be able to swing, but 1 Gig is out of the question for me. Where I already have 256, I’d only have to get another 512. If 1 Gig is absolutely necessary, the 256 that I have now would be useless, and I’d have to get the whole 1 Gig. Again, over $700.00 dollars for me. TOO MUCH!

KingIdiot
11-06-2003, 01:23 PM
GPO still runs on the kontakt engine, so it may be possible to adjust disk streaming preferences to use less RAM (you may lose some voice count). Even if the options aren\'t available in a \"general options\" button, one can probably edit the registry to take advantage of the engine. (if it comes with a dfd streaming extension)

IOComposer
11-09-2003, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by E minor:
Alan Lastufka. . . if you are still monitoring this thread.


You wouldn’t be considering purchasing the GPO would you?

The reason I ask is because I would be interested in knowing if this worked out on your system, with the 768 MB of RAM. If it did, upgrading to 768 MB is something that I might be able to swing, but 1 Gig is out of the question for me. Where I already have 256, I’d only have to get another 512. If 1 Gig is absolutely necessary, the 256 that I have now would be useless, and I’d have to get the whole 1 Gig. Again, over $700.00 dollars for me. TOO MUCH! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Not sure where you live, but here in LA, a 512 stick of RAM is about $50. It can\'t be that much more elsewhere.

EJ
11-09-2003, 06:13 PM
For my Sony laptop, its nearly 200 for 512...

Alan Lastufka
11-10-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by E minor:
Alan Lastufka. . . if you are still monitoring this thread.


You wouldn’t be considering purchasing the GPO would you?

The reason I ask is because I would be interested in knowing if this worked out on your system, with the 768 MB of RAM. If it did, upgrading to 768 MB is something that I might be able to swing, but 1 Gig is out of the question for me. Where I already have 256, I’d only have to get another 512. If 1 Gig is absolutely necessary, the 256 that I have now would be useless, and I’d have to get the whole 1 Gig. Again, over $700.00 dollars for me. TOO MUCH! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Sorry it took so long for me to see this...

Yes, I\'ve already put in my preorder and I will e-mail you the results as soon as it ships. I don\'t expect a problem (or at least I hope, invested all my money into GPO, DIVA and KOMPAKT, can\'t afford more RDRAM!)

Either way, I\'ll let you know as soon as possible.

AL

Alan Lastufka
11-10-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by IOComposer:
Not sure where you live, but here in LA, a 512 stick of RAM is about $50. It can\'t be that much more elsewhere. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">We\'re talking RDRAM (RAMBUS 4-channel) it is vastly superior to DDR, and the proof is in the cost. 1 GB will generally run between $500 - $700 depending on the maker...

AL

robgb
11-10-2003, 11:26 AM
Post deleted by Garritan

Little Boy Blu
11-10-2003, 11:49 AM
I\'m really happy that the demos were posted with works that most people have familiarity. I respect the requests of people asking for the \"Hollywood-esque\" demos, but very rarely do we know what they sound like with a real orchestra (I\'ve heard great compositions produced in the artificial realm that have not come over very well to the real world and vice versa). Being able to hear these familiar compositions speaks wonders when comparing it to recordings of the same works. For this price point, I hope the pre-sales pay for all of the hard work Gary, the programmers and musicians have put forth. This couldn\'t have been cheap to undertake! Thank you for your generosity, Gary and company! images/icons/grin.gif

Bravi!

Tarkio Road
11-10-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by dpasdernick:
Chances are most of our orchestral writing will never be played by a real orchestra. Therefore we want to have the best sounding libraries so that we come as close to the real thing as possible. We can make money off of sounding like a real orchestra. If I buy a product that is easy to use, has all the sounds, etc but does not have the greatest sound then what\'s my next step? Invest in a larger library to port my demos to for final product? Shouldn\'t I just buy the best sounds in the first place? Even if you\'re compositions are outstanding aren\'t most people going to be impressed (therefore buy) your work based upon the final output? Isn\'t it more inspiring to compose when you know your sounding your best?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I agree. I already own GOS, all the SAM brass, etc. The sound quality is better than any of these demos. But I am intrigued by the idea of an orchestral library approach that would save me time, save me computer resources, and still sound closer to what I am used to.

GPO fascinates me with reports of its ease of use, and I would love to be able to compose quickly on just about any computer. But it would be a pain for me to reconstruct the composition in another soft-sampler loaded with the high-end libraries.

The VSL approach of charging $899, and delivering 30 gigs of high-end samples is interesting. The web site makes only a quick mention of Opus 1 being the library of choice for 1 computer, and that it excels at efficiency and economy. But there are no details explaining how they do this with a 30 gig library, and no real explanation of how this product saves time. At least there has been much written about how well GPO is programmed and organized for efficiency.

In theory, EWQLSO Gold and Silver packages (both for $995 using the upgrade) would be best for me. I could load a ton of instruments in Silver and supposedly compose quickly on a laptop or most desktops, then play back in the Gold version (with the large, full featured samples) with no further editing. The Gold demos sound fantastic to my ears, but there are no Silver demos yet. And, like Opus 1, the Gold programs are supposed to work efficiently on \"average\" computers, but no details. I would love to know if the Gold demos were produced on just 1 average computer. I won\'t buy this unless I hear actual user reviews first. But at least Gold and Silver come with the same Kontakt player as GPO.

So if EWQLSO Silver/Gold are empty promises, I guess I will still get GPO and see if the ease of composition is worth the hassle of duplicating the project with high-end libraries. And I\'m sure that there will be some projects that will sound fine with GPO alone.

robgb
11-10-2003, 01:40 PM
I thought the GPO demos were excellent. I think the QLSO and VSL demos are excellent also. I hear no real difference in all the demos that a little compression and eq wouldn\'t change. But the GPO demos were given to us raw.

With all due respect, I think you guys are either nuts or you\'ve lost all sense of objectivity or your ears are shot.

I guess I just have a tough time believing anyone could be \"disappointed\" by the GPO demos. Maybe MY ears are shot...

TC5
11-10-2003, 02:08 PM
Ooo, good one Z6.

Not sure what your point is though. You disagree with my opinion? Fair enough.

Alan Lastufka
11-10-2003, 02:26 PM
E Minor,

I just checked your profile so I could write down your e-mail address to answer your RDRAM question that I posted about earlier, if you could e-mail me with it at alan@alanjoseph.com so I could get back to you once I have it...

AL

Little Boy Blu
11-10-2003, 03:54 PM
Wow, things get a little touchy around here, don\'t they? images/icons/shocked.gif Anyhow, I\'m not sure what recordings Haydn listens to, but I\'m pretty particular about my recordings and don\'t generally purchase recordings where inadequate players make bodily noises with their instruments (although I have a Henry Purcell recording that does just that - on purpose though).

PatS linked to an Amazon.com sample of the LSO doing New World - that English Horn is not a pretty tone to me either. However, it should be noted that double reeds in Europe tend toward a more brilliant (some may even say strident) tone than what you usually find stateside. Techniques vary from region to region, and this LSO recording is a good example of that.

Anyhow, my point seemed to be lost. If you enjoy listening to a good recording with good players, that play with a tone you find pleasing, the demos are not bad for my taste.

Rather than comparing emeralds to diamonds, I think it is more fair to compare GPO to something like Edirol\'s Orchestra. They are both plug-ins with a focus on the orchestra. GPO is by far a better deal and much better sounding than the Edirol Orchestra, which retails for about $300 US.

As for my issues with the GPO demos, the New World demo English Horn sample does waver a bit on pitch on one particular note that occurs frequently (sorry, I don\'t have perfect pitch nor do I have the score handy). As a double reed player, I\'m aware that it\'s an emboucher issue for that note. But have you heard the horrible English Horn of the Edirol Orchestra (now that\'s really awful)? I\'d much rather have a slight emboucher issue than use Edirol\'s obnoxious goose.

My only other concern with the GPO demos, which I hope is due to lossy compression, is loudness (as one other poster mentioned). There seemed to be a lot of noise/hiss in each demo. This is one thing (of many) I don\'t care for with the Edirol Orchestra.

On a final note, I use my computer as a sketch pad to write my work. I have the privilege (and I truly know it as such) to have my compositions performed live. I\'m not looking to tweak every last note in my sequence. If this were truly meant to be for creating high end production quality output, I believe the price would reflect that. All said, for $249 with these demos, I\'m sold.

images/icons/smile.gif

PeterRoos
11-10-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Haydn:
Actually, we had a guy who played trumpet in high school who thought he was the greatest. His tone DID sound like a fart!! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">With some Altiverb or Gigapulse ambience he could play a nice Jurassic Fart theme.

Simon Ravn
11-10-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Alan Lastufka:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by IOComposer:
Not sure where you live, but here in LA, a 512 stick of RAM is about $50. It can\'t be that much more elsewhere. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">We\'re talking RDRAM (RAMBUS 4-channel) it is vastly superior to DDR, and the proof is in the cost. 1 GB will generally run between $500 - $700 depending on the maker...

AL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It might be vastly superior (not anymore with Dual-channel DDR though... ), but doesn\'t make any difference at all when we\'re talking sample playback and such. RAM is not your bottleneck. But yes, the price is vastly.... superior.

Alan Lastufka
11-10-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
...but doesn\'t make any difference at all when we\'re talking sample playback and such. RAM is not your bottleneck... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I agree... 100% I need this type of RAM for my \'other\' job/hobby - Graphic Design. The four-channel is much better at multitasking as it can stream four *seperate* strings of data at once, so when I have Dreamweaver and Flash and Photoshop all blazin\' at once, and then want Cubase SX to stream samples in real time also (dramatic over-renactment here people) I can...

Actually, this RAM is just more effeciant for my Design and my REAL audio (the 24-bit/96-kHz stuff) work, not a concern at all for me with samples. E Minor was just wondering if GPO would play back with only 768MB of RAM because I believe the requirement for it is 1GB. But this RAM seems to work like you have more...

AL

Haydn
11-10-2003, 09:47 PM
Nick posted that he used 2 computers to do the Gold demo. With performance I\'ve noted in both Kontakt and Giga it appears that you will still need multiple computers for both the QLSO Gold and VSL Opus 1 libraries.

I also own Roland and EMU equipment and I can guarantee that the sounds in GPO blow away both instruments. I listed to my old pieces using this equipment compared to the stuff I\'ve recorded in GPO and there is a night and day difference. All of the sections are much superior in sound and don\'t have the machine gun effect of the Roland and EMU stuff.

TC5
11-11-2003, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Haydn:

I also own Roland and EMU equipment and I can guarantee that the sounds in GPO blow away both instruments.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That is good news.

Online demos don\'t tell the whole story and my previous comments refered only to the demos. Auditioning the actual library may well change my mind...

VincePro
11-14-2003, 01:15 AM
Wow, GPO looks great...

Question: As someone who is struggling with Giga in trying to figure out how to properly use and program articuations, etc...What exactly does GPO do that\'s so different so you won\'t have to \"deal with confusing articulations\" etc...What makes it so much easier to use?

Question 2: Will I be able to run GPO on Protools HD Accel on a G5?

dnortana
11-14-2003, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by VincePro:
Wow, GPO looks great...

Question: ...What exactly does GPO do that\'s so different so you won\'t have to \"deal with confusing articulations\" etc...What makes it so much easier to use?

Question 2: Will I be able to run GPO on Protools HD Accel on a G5? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">VincePro,
1)Basically the programming features of Kontakt have \'taken the place of\' different articulations, and you now have controllers to control those features expressively. Take a string patch, for example - velocity controls the attack, mod wheel controls the volume as well as the timbre, foot pedal controls legato ...
2)The GPO player will do RTAS.

Trond

nexus
11-15-2003, 12:05 AM
Rather than comparing emeralds to diamonds, I think it is more fair to compare GPO to something like Edirol\'s Orchestra. They are both plug-ins with a focus on the orchestra. GPO is by far a better deal and much better sounding than the Edirol Orchestra, which retails for about $300 US.

As for my issues with the GPO demos, the New World demo English Horn sample does waver a bit on pitch on one particular note that occurs frequently (sorry, I don\'t have perfect pitch nor do I have the score handy). As a double reed player, I\'m aware that it\'s an emboucher issue for that note. But have you heard the horrible English Horn of the Edirol Orchestra (now that\'s really awful)? I\'d much rather have a slight emboucher issue than use Edirol\'s obnoxious goose.

Well I don\'t think Edirol\'s english horn is THAT bad, but of course it can\'t compare to GPO or the \'mega\' libraries. Where Edirol is quite useful right now is in the brass. alot of it is quite good IMHO. Since GPO has no brass unisons, Edirol will be filling in as well as my SAM brass ported over to Kontakt. The strings of the Edirol are quite a bit strident but I have a miracle plugin from Voxengo called \"Sonicformer\" that seems to work wonders for that kind of problem which is even a little evident in the GOS (it\'s my understanding that the GPO strings are drawn from the GOS). One comment I would like to emphasize here after reading all these discussions of the demos, is that the mega libraries from East-West and others cannot ever be expected to be toppled by a product like GPO, unless it is somehow \'upgraded\' to the level of the top libraries. The area of weakness of the GPO is certainly the brass \'ensembles\' made up of layered solo instruments. Although Gary has done a terrific job of doing it, it still doesn\'t quite work as can be heard in the opening of the Beethoven (although the \"New World\" brass choir at the begining brought a tear to my eye on a second listen). I have pre-ordered GPO because I know it will be upgraded and is ALREADY more complete in a couple areas than anything currently available in it\'s price range. Notice how East-West quickly scrambled to put together a competing product (the \"SILVER\") even including a merely \'okay\' sounding pipe organ from another collection and a too dry grand piano. I believe the smattering of a couple choir samples from the VOTA collection are a marketing ploy to get people to spend fifty bucks more than GPO. You do get the brass and a couple woodwind unisons, but I\'m sure Gary will be offering these in an upgrade which will no doubt be VERY reasonably priced (or, knowing how Gary does business, even FREE!!) Now if he could just do a GPO \'Choir\' to compete with VOTA and price it like this I think I might just be able to obtain bliss in this life!

Headcheese
11-15-2003, 08:09 AM
I agree with Nexus. However, I would take it a bit further. GPO sounds WAY better than Edirol.I agree that the two together will be useful on my system and I agree that Gary\'s track record for upgrades distances the two.

Here is the thing. For my local high school. The bigger libraries and the complexity of Gigasampler were useless within the High school composition class paradigm - where students drift in and out for a semester or two and really only get a taste of the whole subject. LEarning to use Gigasampler was simply impossible. For them a 5-7 piece composition that they could actually get recorded by the school band members was the most they could dream of. With GPO, the whole paradigm gets turned on its ear. The Edirol program gave them a taste of bigger things, but in the end, the limitations were too great and it was barely used - it just required too many tricks and too much slight of hand to get a satisfying end product. From what I can see and hear, GPO addresses those deficiencies in spades. I believe GPO can revolutionize High School music programs.

Bravo Gary and crew.

Bruce A. Richardson
11-15-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by nexus:
Now if he could just do a GPO \'Choir\' to compete with VOTA and price it like this I think I might just be able to obtain bliss in this life! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Why, though? VOTA is a great library, and it\'s very reasonably priced.

This \"urban infill\" is like spinning in circles. How does our medium advance if people spend their time just duplicating and undercutting good existing solutions? There are mountains yet to be climbed, and people are arguing that developers should spend more time constructing anthills and duking it out over who beats whose price.

That\'s not good for the industry or the medium. It just wastes talented people\'s efforts on crass competitiveness.

keytar
11-15-2003, 10:25 AM
\"This \"urban infill\" is like spinning in circles. How does our medium advance if people spend their time just duplicating and undercutting good existing solutions? There are mountains yet to be climbed, and people are arguing that developers should spend more time constructing anthills and duking it out over who beats whose price.

That\'s not good for the industry or the medium. It just wastes talented people\'s efforts on crass competitiveness.\"

Oh please Bruce... quit compaining about the fact that FINALLY developers realize the growth of the sample market is not based on $1000.00 libraries anymore sold to the \"dozens\" of commercial composers ready to buy. No, the growth of the sample market will be based on the home enthusiast or the semi pro. This is the growing market. This is where the big numbers are. Sell us a product we can easily get into, as our income and abilities grow, sure, point us towards bigger things, but it\'s about time WE\'RE being considered!!

KingIdiot
11-15-2003, 10:26 AM
That\'s not good for the industry or the medium. It just wastes talented people\'s efforts on crass competitiveness.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">A-F\'in-Men

Tarkio Road
11-15-2003, 11:51 AM
<\"This \"urban infill\" is like spinning in circles. How does our medium advance if people spend their time just duplicating and undercutting good existing solutions? There are mountains yet to be climbed, and people are arguing that developers should spend more time constructing anthills and duking it out over who beats whose price.

That\'s not good for the industry or the medium. It just wastes talented people\'s efforts on crass competitiveness.\">

Why are you preaching to us? This is a business model invented by the developers. They are the ones doing the undercutting. The only option we as users have is to be as outraged as you and not buy their products. Would this be good for the industry or the medium?

Please, just contact Gary Garritan and tell him how he is \"wasting talented people\'s efforts on crass competitiveness.\"

We should be spending more time in this forum discussing how best to use these new more affordable libraries, not bashing the developers who decided to create and market them.

Garritan
11-15-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by falcon1:
I would be very interested in what Gary (for example) could come up with in regards of Choir lib and also solo-voice lib (Soprano, Mezzo-soprano, Alt, Tenor, Baritone, Bass) - But of course we have an excellent solo-voice lib already in DIVA, and soon hopefully we will get the men.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">For those wanting voices, I am pleased to announce that we are working on a co-development arrangement with with Frank Belardino of BelaDMedia for a choir that matches the value and musicality standard set by GPO. More details will follow.

Also, We\'re impressed with the solo voice libraries they currently offer. GPO users will get a discount on the DIVA solo voices bundle. http://www.beladmedia.com/garritan.html (\"http://www.beladmedia.com/garritan.html\")

Gary Garritan

falcon1
11-15-2003, 02:33 PM
That\'s great news! Looking forward for more info.

GPO + Choir made by Gary and Frank = The ultimate lib.

Anyway, thanks guys for excellent products.

Bela D Media
11-15-2003, 02:41 PM
Bela D Media is excited to have the opportunity to work with Gary Garritan -
the person responsible for so many of the breakthroughs that we musicians enjoy today.

Voci Choir is in production, and we will be working very closely with Gary.

Our goal is for Voci Choir to work seamlessly with Garritan Personal Orchestra, and provide what we think will be a new level of expression to the world of vocal scoring.

More later

Francis Belardino
BELA D MEDIA
www.beladmedia.com (\"http://www.beladmedia.com\")

Enjoy your discount!

Hardy Heern
11-15-2003, 03:51 PM
Great news Francis....this whole thing is just getting better and better.

Frank

Bela D Media
11-15-2003, 04:52 PM
http://www.beladmedia.com/garritan.html (\"http://www.beladmedia.com/garritan.html\")

Now\'s your chance, Frank LOL

How have you been? It\'s been awhile!

Tarkio Road
11-15-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by B:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Tarkio Road:
This is a business model invented by the developers. They are the ones doing the undercutting. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Tarkio,
Who do you think is undercutting who?

Brian </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Who?

Haydn
11-15-2003, 07:24 PM
Nexus,

The ensemble brass with 3 or 4 horns and trumpets won\'t work properly for the Beethoven. There are only 2 horn and 2 trumpet parts. They rarely ever play unison. About the only unison parts are the main theme the 2 horns play together a few times.

These older pieces were not written for the modern orchestra. The instrumentation was much lighter in the classical period. Most of the Beethoven works had smaller string sections, a timpani for the whole percussion section, 4 brass and 8 woodwinds. He did write a few symphonies with larger orchestrations which was really a new thing back then.

falcon1
11-16-2003, 12:15 AM
Heheheh... Bruce you know that your argument could also be used on music - Why are you still composing tonal music when there are mountains yet to be climbed in Atonal etc. music?

Why are there so many companies releasing new audio cards etc. and all still in 24bit or what ever.

Specially regarding technology it\'s rarely that the 1st generation of X product is satisfying years after it was initially released.

Although I like VOTA very much it has a one huge flaw in my opinion, and that\'s that the split is only between Men/Women but not Soprano/Alt/Tenor/Bass.

I must say that I would be very interested in what Gary (for example) could come up with in regards of Choir lib and also solo-voice lib (Soprano, Mezzo-soprano, Alt, Tenor, Baritone, Bass) - But of course we have an excellent solo-voice lib already in DIVA, and soon hopefully we will get the men.

Anyway, we are living very exciting time in the sample world! images/icons/wink.gif

B
11-16-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Tarkio Road:
This is a business model invented by the developers. They are the ones doing the undercutting. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Tarkio,
Who do you think is undercutting who?

Brian

nexus
11-23-2003, 08:20 PM
Falcon1 said:
\"Although I like VOTA very much it has a one huge flaw in my opinion, and that\'s that the split is only between Men/Women but not Soprano/Alt/Tenor/Bass.\"

This is exactly what I was saying, so I am VERY pleased to hear Gary is working on a choir version of GPO!!

I might also add that in my experience some of the forte choir sounds (the female voices in particular) sound a little \'synthetic\' in chords.

As for Haydn\'s comments concerning my critique of the GPO brass \'unisons\', I will say I am quite aware of the orchestrational requirements of Beethoven era scoring of brass and woodwind. My concern was for the other 80% of users who would be expecting more of a Wagner-Bruckner-Mahler type of brass scoring. This is more the \'heavy\' approach applied by most film composers too. Still, I found the brass in the Beethoven intro a little \'fakey\' as one other person here mentioned. This might have been overcome to some degree during the mixing process.
I believe the comments of Rob Shrock in EM magazine (saying he wanted to have separate samples of brass instuments so he could orchestrate in a \'natural\' way) might have influenced Gary\'s decision to exclude unisons.
On an interesting note, I have found that for instance the SAM horns can \'chord\' very well, sounding somehow more natural than switching to solo horn samples. This points up a very important point that I believe many people here forget: Midi orchestration IS NOT real orchestration, no matter how much we would like it to be so. In my years of experience with this I have found it essential to abandon most traditional orchestration thought and just go for what sounds right. If you do something that violates what you were taught in school about orchestration, and it sounds good anyway, so what?
This stuff we do on our computers isn\'t reality, it\'s fantasy. If you compare what you do in a recreation of a famous classical work to a good recording of same, and you have taken \'liberties\' with it in your mockup to get it sound as impressive, that isn\'t really a \'bad thing\'.
I suppose I might bother some of you a little with my words, so let me say again, I REALLY appreciate what Gary is doing with GPO (I pre-ordered as soon as I found out about it, no question) and I suspect Gary himself knows he will have to add unisons as an upgrade to get the kind of brass power expected in heavy works and film scoring.

RickD
11-24-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by nexus:

I suppose I might bother some of you a little with my words, so let me say again, I REALLY appreciate what Gary is doing with GPO (I pre-ordered as soon as I found out about it, no question) and I suspect Gary himself knows he will have to add unisons as an upgrade to get the kind of brass power expected in heavy works and film scoring. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I think this library is going to make a great sketch pad, that\'s all I expect from it. Any thing else is a bonus.

Rick

passagio
06-13-2008, 07:14 PM
I am pleased to present the first GPO demos! Thanks to Duncan Brinsmead, Jim Ortner, Frank Spitznagel and Tom Hopkins for preparing these demos.

These demos will give you an idea of some of the capabilities of Personal Orchestra right \"out-of-the-box\". The instrumentation in these demos ranges from large symphony orchestrations, to a small ragtime band, to an concert pipe organ solo.

Everything you hear in these demos is from Garritan Personal Orchestra. No other libraries were used and no EQ nor external processing was applied Everything was loaded, played, sequenced and mixed on each of the performer\'s personal computer. The integrated Kontakt player by Native Instruments was used as a plug-in the performer\'s sequencer (Sonar, Cubasis, Logic). The Ambience reverb plug-in that is bundled with Personal Orchestra was used in the mix for all these demos. These demos also show many of the expressive controls available such as Mod Wheel expression/dynamics, alternating up and down bows, the legato feature, tongued and slurred choices in the winds, and portamento.

Here are the links:

http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Magic-Flute-Overture.mp3 (http://%5C%22http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Magic-Flute-Overture.mp3%5C%22)
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/New-World-Symphony.mp3 (http://%5C%22http://www.garritan.com/mp3/New-World-Symphony.mp3%5C%22)
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Beethoven-5thSymphony.mp3 (http://%5C%22http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Beethoven-5thSymphony.mp3%5C%22)
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/EasyWinners-Ragtime.mp3 (http://%5C%22http://www.garritan.com/mp3/EasyWinners-Ragtime.mp3%5C%22)
http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Bach-Toccata.mp3 (http://%5C%22http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Bach-Toccata.mp3%5C%22)


Here is the link to the demo section of my website where you can find out the instrumentation and more information about the demos.

http://www.garritan.com/mp3.html (http://%5C%22http://www.garritan.com/mp3.html%5C%22)



These links are all busted (or not well formed). I'm getting page load errors on all of them.

suspenlute
06-13-2008, 07:27 PM
Could be because the post is five years old. :) I think the main GPO demo page still works though (or at least half the links on it still work).

-Chris P.

etLux
07-23-2008, 03:25 PM
Could be because the post is five years old. :)

-Chris P.

LOL... yeah, there is that, Chris.

But I'll bet you pack-rat Gary's got them linked up somewhere.
Anyone know where? As I recall, these were quite worth
listening to.

Best,



David
www.DavidSosnowski.com

June-Bug-Dan
07-26-2008, 07:24 AM
LOL... yeah, there is that, Chris.

But I'll bet you pack-rat Gary's got them linked up somewhere.
Anyone know where? As I recall, these were quite worth
listening to.

Best,



David
www.DavidSosnowski.com (http://www.DavidSosnowski.com)

I'd like to hear these as well. Gary must have them somewhere:wow:

Dan.W