PDA

View Full Version : Using GOS full On a mac



Elbee
08-22-2002, 03:40 PM
I\'m really interested in buying the GOS library. Any mac users out there who care to share their experience with using this library on a platform other than PC and Giga. What Software Samplers and sequencers are you using etc etc. On the GOS site it says other platforms coming soon. Anyone now which ones and when. One last question: is virtual Maestro Tools available on the mac version of logic as well? If Maestro tools are as important to the library as it seems most on this site feel, is it foolish to even think of using the library on a mac. Thanks in advance for any help and advice.

dturner
08-22-2002, 11:39 PM
Hello Elbee:

I have been using the Akai version of GOS on my mac G4 with wonderful results. The Akai programs and samples were converted to Unity format with Osmosis. I run Unity [an older version -- 2.1 I believe] with ProTools LE and DigiOO1 hardware and bring the Unity output channels into PTLE as a plugin.

The continuous controller functions did not translate, so velocity is the only expressive control I have access to. Still, even with this limited setup, the samples sound gorgeous and are full, lush and very musical. I have also run GOS Akai/Unity/PTLE on a G3 laptop using Digidesign\'s M-Box hardware.

I\'ve read that Unity Session will read streaming Giga files, as will Kontakt for mac from Native Instruments. [Kontakt looks like a great app by the way] And I am looking forward to the time when Translator from Chicken Systems will be fully functional.

As far as I know, there is no way for Maestro Tools to work within the mac OS. I wonder if it would be possible to run a Windows emulator to host Maestro Tools, along with PTLE? [ok... I didn\'t think so]

Overall, we mac folks will soon have some wonderful new tools and instruments to play with. I imagine all these apps will be compatible with OSX some day...but in the short term, the OS9.x route is looking pretty damned cool.

Dennis

Runyon
08-23-2002, 12:17 AM
Elbee. I have transferred several Giga patches over to EXS24 and Logic Audio on the Mac. They sound awesome.

The GOS samples in particular sound very good on that platform. The Mod wheel crossfade patches don\'t work, so I only kept the short bowing patches and non-expressive GOS instruments. You still get good transfer of velocity levels.

You also do not have Keyswitch capabilities on the EXS, so those type of Giga instruments won\'t work.

There is more richness to the samples on the EXS. I\'ve heard similar reports from those who use Unity. Gigastudio must have some funky filtering going on. And on the PC I use RME Hammerfall 9652 card connected to O2R via lightpipe, so I know it\'s not that.

Also, you do have to check the envelopes, as they do not always transfer properly. But these are easy to adjust to taste, and most people do this anyway.

Maestro Tools DOES work on the Mac as there is a Mac Logic Environment object that emulates Maestro Tools. You\'ll find it with the GOS Updates disc. It works well so you get your alternate up/down bowing on those patches. I haven\'t tried the legato feature, but I suspect that works also.

You don\'t get the Mod Wheel variation short bow patches, which I like very much.

London Orchestral Percussion also sounds very good on the EXS.

One thing is for certain as far as I\'m concerned: Any library developers that hitch their product to only GigaStudio (via copy protection encryption or whatever) will not be getting any of my money.

I like the flexibility of bringing my samples over to the EXS on the Mac. I also suspect that there will soon be an update for the EXS that will incorporate continuous controller cross-fading.

I like using GigaStudio. If you don\'t have it yet but are considering buying one, it is worth the investment, in my opinion. But if you are a die-hard Mac head, you won\'t be needing Giga in the near future.

Hasen
08-23-2002, 02:54 AM
I use GOS with HALion on the Mac and while it works ok, most of the special programming doesn\'t. Things like keyswitching work but crossfading and warmth control etc doesn\'t convert.

I don\'t know much about EXS24 but as for Kontact, it does convert Giga but it doesn\'t stream, which makes it next to useless for orchestral music. It\'s got all kinds of cool filters and stuff and seems really to be dance oriented. Coming from Native Instruments I would have expected nothing less. images/icons/smile.gif

HALion is in desperate need of an update however, which I\'m assured is coming soon. Once this happens it should be able to compete directly with Giga. It has SO much potential, especially in regard to polyphony efficiency,

Ned Bouhalassa
08-23-2002, 06:35 AM
I\'m on a Mac, and I just got the full version of GOS yesterday. I imported the .gig files into EXS24, and everything went very smoothly. All I can say is... WOW! The best grand I\'ve ever spent. Sure, there are many things that can\'t be duplicated on the EXS, but I\'m sure that this will change in the near future (AppleEmagic seems quite commited to this solid softsampler). In the meantime, the samples and programming are out of this world. images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

Hasen
08-23-2002, 07:06 AM
So I guess EXS24 streams? How many instruments can you have loaded per instance of EXS24, and how many instances can you have at once? How efficient is it? ie how much polyphony can you get?

Also, can it be run on anything besides Logic?

midphase
08-23-2002, 08:25 AM
GOS LITE in Unity Session has imported relatively well. The Akai files behaved well in Unity 2.1 also.

Of course the cool programming from the originals didn\'t make it but.....

....The good news is that Unity can replicate essentially 100% of the programming used on the LITE collection and about 90% of the Full GOS, including the Maestro Tools functionality.

Unfortunately, without a good knowledge of programming for Unity, the average user might feel overwhelmed.

All in all, you are bound to get quite a bit of good use even from the basic translations. It\'s an incredible library and it will sound great no matter what!

Ned Bouhalassa
08-23-2002, 08:26 AM
Yes, EXS streams off your hard-drive. Each EXS represents one instrument. You can call up to 64 in one sequence. I believe that polyphony is only limited by your CPU. As for using it in other sequencers, yes there is a read-only version called EXSP24. It is limited by the fact that you can\'t record/edit your own samples, but it\'s fine for playing existing librairies. It\'s a very solid, good sounding (filter!!) softsampler. I highly recommend it.

Runyon
08-23-2002, 08:48 AM
Hansen,

64 EXS24\'s can be run simultaneously, each one with 64 voices of polyphony on Version 5.2 for the Mac...(previously 32). Yes, it disk streams.

Logic has increased the number of audio instruments with just about every update. I suspect that 64 will increase at some point in future with the Newer Macs. It also streams true 24 bit audio.

As far as i know this is a Logic only sampler.
The thing I like about it is it is a very, VERY simple interface. Even a neophyte can find their way around it with little effort. It simply sounds great and is easy to use. Stable, never crashes, and just loading up a couple of dozen huge patches has little effect on memory. The processor is only affected when you are actually streaming. It\'s like having 64 audio tracks ready to go, but with sampled instruments.

My default autoload song in Logic has about 40 pre-loaded sampler instruments at the ready any time I want to use them...plus 24 open ones. Close to zero latency, sample accurate timing.

Plus, if you cross over and do electronic music as well as orchestral, there are features that Giga can\'t do in that genre.

Hasen
08-23-2002, 09:36 AM
64\'s not bad I suppose, the same as Giga. But it doesn\'t solve the problem of having to run multiple machines. Unity and HALion can run more, as much as you have RAM I guess - certainly in the case of HALion anyway.

It seems EXS24 is very user-friendly, as is HALion but Unity and Giga are certainly not. They all have their pros and cons. images/icons/smile.gif

I don\'t want to run Giga \'cos I\'d need a pc, it has limited amount of instruments that can be loaded, and bad use of/low polyphony. So I have to look at the alternatives. For now I\'m running HALion but I certainly have my eye on all these other samplers.....

If HALion gets the update it needs then it\'ll be no contest but who knows when that will be? images/icons/confused.gif

Timo Heil
08-29-2002, 01:38 AM
>>>AppleEmagic seems quite commited to this solid softsampler<<<

Considering the fact that it took them about two years to implement support for the Giga format...I wish you good luck. And except for the streaming feature nothing else - except for some little tweaks - has changed since the original release in summer 2000.

midphase
08-29-2002, 08:25 AM
Unity Session is perhaps the most powerful soft sampler available today (as in functions and programmability). It is also the only sequencer independent one for the Mac (until Kontakt comes out). You can do lots of great things to emulate the finctions of Gigastudio, and lots of things that Gigastudio can\'t do.

I really wish that Bitheadz, the company responsible for Session, would read these (and other) posts and do something about Unity\'s main complaint which is its hard set up and use. With some small user interface improvements, Session could easily gain momentum.

Well....I guess you can\'t have your cake and eat it!

Click here if you don\'t like Macs! (\"http://users.pandora.be/p0p0/youare.swf\")

Ned Bouhalassa
09-04-2002, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by Timo Heil:
Considering the fact that it took them about two years to implement support for the Giga format...I wish you good luck. And except for the streaming feature nothing else - except for some little tweaks - has changed since the original release in summer 2000.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well then, I guess they waited until they had a near-perfect sampler before putting it out.

I suppose they would make more updates if they didn\'t have this other little thing to take care of (Logic). Anyhow, thanks for the wishes!

Bruce A. Richardson
09-04-2002, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Hasen:

I don\'t want to run Giga \'cos I\'d need a pc, it has limited amount of instruments that can be loaded, and bad use of/low polyphony. So I have to look at the alternatives. For now I\'m running HALion but I certainly have my eye on all these other samplers.....
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Hasen,

I think you are perhaps a little misinformed about GigaStudio\'s polyphony use and management. Actually, the opposite is true--side by side with Halion, there is really no comparison at all in efficiency of polyphony use--or in the number of instruments loadable per amount of RAM. You may get a higher number of **POTENTIAL** raw RAM streams from Halion, but you will get nowhere the amount of disk streaming capability, nor will you get anything approaching the polyphony management finesse of GigaStudio. They are worlds apart in capability.

The last point is especially noteworthy. A GigaStudio 160 instance may only allow 160 (80 stereo) simultaneous SOUNDING samples, but its polyphony management algorithms are highly advanced, and the actual amount of polyphony that is being LEVERAGED is quite a bit higher. And in particular, there are some instrument specific programming techniques (such as self-mask) which invoke yet different aspects of the overall polyphony management scheme and again RADICALLY increase what I would call \"virtual polyphony,\" that is, the sounding and intelligent stealing of voices in such a way that a far greater amount of percieved polyphony is at work even though the disk-access algorithm is constantly limiting the realtime stream to 160/80 voices.

I\'m taking the opportunity to respond to this because people may read what you\'re saying and come to incorrect conclusions. Halion may offer some easy interface conventions, and some plugin and Macintosh compatibility advantages for you, but I assure you that it is hardly capable of handling the brute polyphony OR instrument loading potential of GigaStudio on an otherwise equal computer workstation.

If you have any doubts about what I\'m saying, I\'d urge you to visit someone who has a Giga-based studio running and who also owns Halion, and perform your own analysis. Load up a piano or other disk-intensive library on both machines, and measure streaming/polyphony/latency performance. I think you will come away from that demonstration with quite a different respect for the technologies that make GigaStudio unique among software samplers.

I\'m certainly not a Giga-snob, and in fact I am an avid user of Kontakt which also offers certain strengths. But I believe in setting the record straight about relative strengths and weaknesses, and you are spreading some misinformation regarding these aspects of GigaStudio, perhaps because you are not making live comparisons.

Best regards,
Bruce

Hasen
09-04-2002, 12:43 PM
I think I should step in here....my comment about bad use of polyphony was something I had read about how Giga\'s poly sometimes goes up and up for something that shouldn\'t be using much at all. I can\'t remember the specifics of it so I\'ll withdraw that remark.

My other comments stand however; Bruce, you state that HALion and Giga are virtually equal side by side in polyphony yet Giga shoots itself in the foot by setting its own limitation of 80 voices. Even if you have a dual 2.5 Gig Athlon with 10000 RPM SCSI Hard Drives you\'ll still only get 80...

Please don\'t lecture me about the problems of streaming \'cos is that really the issue with polyphony? How often are you actually streaming anyway? With HALion there is a preload setting of two seconds which I can set higher if I wish so only if a sample goes beyond that point will it begin to stream. Things like fast woodwind and string movements are what takes up the polyphony and they\'re not even gonna be streaming at all...

I believe Midphase has something like a dual 500 Mac (correct me if I\'m wrong) and he\'s getting pretty much Giga\'s maximum. That really isn\'t a top end Mac at all so its obvious that you will be able to beat Giga with a top end Mac or even approaching top end. Top pcs being more powerful than Macs will mean you can achieve even higher performance still.

The other problem of course is that you can only load 64 different articulations at a time. Now surely you\'re not about to tell that\'s not a problem....its the whole reason people have to have multiple machine setups....but the power is there nowadays to have it all in one machine.

Cubase SX allows 32 instances of HALion with 256 poly possible and 16 instruments for each. I\'m not about to claim I can run that much polyphony anywhere near or even have the RAM to load that many instruments. Nor would I want to.....but on a top machine it goes WAY past Giga\'s capability....

Its not without problems of course, all these alternatives are trying to \'be like Giga\' in terms of features, yet have fallen short of the mark so far.

Bruce A. Richardson
09-04-2002, 02:22 PM
Hi Hasen,

Please don\'t misunderstand my intentions here. I\'m trying to shed some light, not just \"lecture.\" Peace.

Unlike the plugin soft-synths, you can load instruments into GigaStudio and NOT have them mapped to any particular channel/port. The loading of instruments and actual ASSIGNING of the instruments to a playback \"slot\" are two separate operations, and ASSIGNING an instrument is an instantaneous, realtime operation, via MIDI port/program changes. So, while there may only be 64 slots available for PLAYBACK at a given time, you can load literally hundreds of instruments which can be switched in mid-note without so much as a bump or artifact (when you change programs mid-note, any sustaining voices continue to sustain in the previous instrument).

So, in fact, GigaStudio\'s capability to load and access instruments is almost unlimited...and in many ways this allows you to keep much simpler and more straightforward sequences with reduced track counts.

Back to the polyphony issue: I guarantee you that GigaStudio steals polyphony SO well, that you will be almost at a loss to tell that it\'s even happening. That\'s what I mean by \"polyphony management.\" The algorithms that dictate voice stealing are quite advanced, and the voices that do get stolen are almost always so far underneath the mix by the time they\'re \"approved\" for stealing that you are no longer hearing them. As I said before, there are also instrument design parameters which further enhance polyphony management--whose behavior is determined down to the individual sample level. There is extraordinary control on how voice stealing operates specific to different instrument needs. It is an operation which is really difficult to detect even when you try to \"abuse\" the system into making audible artifacts.

There\'s a full-point revision of GigaStudio coming shortly. I am quite certain that polyphony levels will be raised according to the performance abilities of current machines, meaning that all of this efficiency and advanced polyphony management will just go that much farther.

Hopefully I\'m providing this information in a way that is not coming off as a lecture. I just see comments that make me think that people are unaware of some of these issues, and they\'re important in understanding the bigger picture. GigaStudio is unlike plugin samplers in these key areas, so just comparing something as general as a raw polyphony limit is really not comparing capabilities on an even scale. The things I\'m pointing out are really more than compensating for any difference in raw polyphony, and in fact, if you compare really DIFFICULT playback scenarios--like pipe organs, release-trigger orchestral instruments, pianos, harps, long-decay percussion, and the like, GigaStudio outperforms plugin samplers by a huge margin. In this case, theoretical polyphony counts really do take a back seat to actual raw performance capability, and that is the scenario in which GigaStudio really shines.

Like I\'ve said, I\'m a huge Kontakt fan, and I use it for lots of exciting and novel approaches to some of the same samples. But it\'s no GigaStudio when it comes to throwing down massive orchestrations, no matter how many instances I can load or what the theoretical polyphony count of those instances are. In some cases, that\'s really a moot point.

Hasen
09-04-2002, 04:14 PM
Hi Bruce, I don\'t doubt Giga\'s polyphony management but I\'ve heard from several sources that HALion is even better - not at streaming, just polyphony management.

You\'ve certainly shed light on me as regards the loading of articulations though. It seems rather confusing now as to why people have to have from three to twelve Giga machines to realise their orchestral compositions! Perhaps they don\'t know about this feature either. images/icons/smile.gif

I know its not a lecture Bruce, just a wealth of information as usual. images/icons/smile.gif I still wouldn\'t want to use Giga for several other reasons; its not for Mac, the instruments aren\'t saved with the song and don\'t automatically load up when you reload the song, it has an absolutely horrible user interface and editor images/icons/tongue.gif and of course the problem that I stated from the very beginning; it only has 80 notes or polyphony regardless of your system\'s capabilities.

As for Kontact, well I hear the guys at the Steinberg forums rave about it all the time....but then they\'re all danceheads. images/icons/wink.gif I wouldn\'t want to use it for orchestral that\'s for sure, but HALion and Unity are certainly suited to the task.

Bill
09-04-2002, 05:51 PM
\"I don\'t want to run Giga \'cos I\'d need a pc\"

I think that\'s your reason. Everything else you\'ve said is just made up to justify it.

midphase
09-04-2002, 08:41 PM
Help! Hasen has gone nuts with the smiley faces!!!

Well, as I said, different tools for different people. Life might be rosy for you Bruce, but a read through the technical issues board will reveal otherwise for many users.

Nonetheless, this is a topic for other boards and not this one. I suggest that we either pick this up elsewhere or go back to the original issue which is whether or not Mac users have been able to use GOS on their machines!

Having said that....here\'s a smiley face!
images/icons/smile.gif

midphase
09-04-2002, 11:05 PM
Bruce,

I think you might be a tad too harsh towards Hasen\'s remarks.

First of all, the performance that you describe only comes with a very finely tuned system which for a lot of people is hard to achieve.

Secondly, users have been getting better and better results with other brands. Session gives me on the average 120-160 Stereo voices on a relatively older system, with Digital Performer and quicktime movies running alongside it. I am sure that HALion and EXS users have been achieving more than an 80 stereo voice polyphony on their systems.

Oddly enough, I have never though about polyphony as being an important factor when considering a soft sampler. For me it comes down to running everything out of the same box and having an intergrated patch list within my sequencer that I can select on the fly along with very fast loading times. Other people of course have different needs.

Each system has its own strenghts and weaknesses, and it\'s up to each user\'s needs to determine which one is best for them.

Bruce A. Richardson
09-04-2002, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by midphase:
Bruce,

I think you might be a tad too harsh towards Hasen\'s remarks.

First of all, the performance that you describe only comes with a very finely tuned system which for a lot of people is hard to achieve.

Secondly, users have been getting better and better results with other brands. Session gives me on the average 120-160 Stereo voices on a relatively older system, with Digital Performer and quicktime movies running alongside it. I am sure that HALion and EXS users have been achieving more than an 80 stereo voice polyphony on their systems.

Oddly enough, I have never though about polyphony as being an important factor when considering a soft sampler. For me it comes down to running everything out of the same box and having an intergrated patch list within my sequencer that I can select on the fly along with very fast loading times. Other people of course have different needs.

Each system has its own strenghts and weaknesses, and it\'s up to each user\'s needs to determine which one is best for them.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'m not trying to be harsh. I\'m trying to clarify statements made which are not applicable comparisons, that\'s all.

I\'m not disagreeing that each sampling system has merits in and of itself. I\'m also not disagreeing that there is much to consider when choosing a tool for a particular task beyond brute force polyphony.

But once again, to be clear, if we\'re making POLYPHONY comparisons, then they should be apples and apples, not apples and oranges. Hasen made some very general statements about Halion\'s polyphony capabilities and about GigaStudio\'s polyphony capabilities that are misleading at best, and downright untrue in many regards. In the interest of good information, I\'m merely setting the record straight.

In fact, now you are making some misleading statements too. I\'m not trying to start a flame war here, but there is a HUGE difference just stating some raw polyphony number and qualifying it to be a valid comparison. Unity is definitely NOT ****streaming**** the number of voices you state. In fact, it may not even be playing that number of voices from RAM without stealing. On the other hand, GigaStudio is often ****playing*** the equivalent of over double the number of voices it\'s ****streaming**** and it is ALWAYS capable of streaming a steady 160/80 on almost any modern machine.

By the way, my \"finely tuned\" computer is actually a rather dirt-cheap AMD box, which is certainly middle of the road compared to the fastest machines available.

I don\'t mean this to sound harsh. I just don\'t want misleading or incomplete information to go unclarified, because thousands of people make buying decisions based on information exchanged here.

Surely after my bile-fest on the copy protection issue, you wouldn\'t consider me a Giga suck-up. images/icons/wink.gif I just believe that credit should be given where credit is due.