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View Full Version : Me~got's~o ... Legato!



Francis Belardino
11-19-2001, 09:36 PM
Now that I have a sustian pedal, legato mode works well.

Anyone have tips on GPC 2 and 5 to help achive soft, lush lines?

Thanks

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Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

Francis Belardino
11-19-2001, 09:54 PM
Quick question. Is there any chance of .art updates that will have slow (slower) attacks.

I can hear the warmth within legato mode but a slow, floating attack would seal the deal.

Just a thought. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

KingIdiot
11-20-2001, 10:17 AM
Francis,

hceck out the tips and Tricks thread in thie GOS forum for how to get a slower attack with GOS. I\'d suggest using MIDI CC11 as well to get \"swelly\" lines.

high notes sound good with very soft tremelo which you can crossfade into sustain notes via MIDI cc 11 (downwards on tremelo and iverted upwards on sustain)

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Really...I am an Idiot

Francis Belardino
11-20-2001, 02:04 PM
Hey king. How goes it?

Is cc11 breath control?

Damon
11-20-2001, 02:57 PM
CC11 is expression control. I think King means use that in conjunction with the mod wheel EXP patches. You have to be an octopus to do it all at the same time though. So do one thing at a time.
You can also just use a regular SusV patch and use your CC11 control if you want a slower fade in, fade out.
I find the grand detaches to be the best for expressive slow string stuff, but they don\'t sustain very long. In the future they are supposed to be updated to sustain longer.
The masking control is something you have to experiment with.

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 11-20-2001).]

Scott Speed
11-20-2001, 03:07 PM
I wholeheartedly second that! I would also love to see an update with slower attacks...drawing in expression controllers left and right ain\'t my idea of a party.
I was actually pretty surprised to find that there were no slow attack patches in the library. Granted, I\'m still new to the library, so if I\'m missing anything (which is very possible), please feel free to chime in.

Regards,
Scott

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Francis Belardino:
Quick question. Is there any chance of .art updates that will have slow (slower) attacks.

I can hear the warmth within legato mode but a slow, floating attack would seal the deal.

Just a thought. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Francis Belardino
11-20-2001, 03:50 PM
Scott,

I agree.

But, I will say this.

If Gary could(and maybe he can)he will.

This is not the typical, \"you bought it deal with it\" Library.

Gary listens to what we have to say! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

There\'s a switch, uh? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

Simon Ravn
11-20-2001, 04:35 PM
Hmmm I don\'t understand why you want these slow attacks. If you really, really (really really!) want them, you can just make a new patch with slow attack in the editor. It will be a fake one however, unlike one that you make with expression (maybe in combination with volume), which will be more natural, also because it won\'t be the exact same attacklength each time - you can vary it as you like.

Damon
11-20-2001, 04:50 PM
I adjusted the attack slower on a SusV 1st violin patch in the Giga Editor and it helped a little but not much.
I think what I\'m having problems with is note to note the strings tie to eachother to quick for slow string stuff and like Simon said this can be adjusted in the giga Editor with a slower attack but it does make the sample sound faker.
I think for really slow stuff (ex:Adagio for Strings) the grand detaches with a longer sustain would be ideal.
Simon, you seem to have gotten good slow string sounds in your \"Adagio for Strings\" demo. Why don\'t you share what settings you used? (masking control value, patches, etc.) Did you use the cc11 control with those as well with EXP LEG instruments?
I\'d appreciate any advice on that.

Mark UK
11-20-2001, 05:25 PM
Simon - would it be possible to hear the \"Adagio for Strings\" that has been mentioned? I would be really interested to hear how it turned out.

Many thanks!

Mark

KingIdiot
11-20-2001, 07:05 PM
Well of course drawing Controllers doesn\'t sound like a party, but the results are FAR better than a patch with slower attacks.

In fact I find that with REALLY slow crecendos its a good idea to strt with Sordino patches or even tremelo patches at pp and cross fade via CC11 controls. Even better would be harmonics. these suckers are super light and airy layering some of these in on top gives a great airy tone with EXP control on the SusViv EXP Leg instruments. They can be used as \"harmonic overtones\" instead of real Harmonics. Or if you do crossfading it can be used to simulate light bow attack to piano bow sound.

Like I stated aove Sodinos work great too. Another thing you might want to do is set the velocity curve of the SUSVIB EXP instruments to a different setting. This allwos th user to adjust velocity setttings of NOte Ons as well as exp. This isn\'t \"realistic\" but it might help you get wht you\'re looking for, by either A playing notes softer, or B playing PIanimisso louder but using CC control to control volume.

Anyhow, Damons right that the GR detaches ahve a sweet slow moving lines, but for REAAAALLLY slow lines dont like them. They are too expressive.

I REALLY like Non vibrato samples for slow attacks, you can control the expressiveness with the NonVib to Vib instrument.

There are MANY options, if you want it \"out of the box\" with slow attacks, it will end up sounding fake, you need to spend time getting \"into\" the library.

However, so many people are asking for this, that it might be a great articulation file update... guys.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif


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Really...I am an Idiot

Francis Belardino
11-20-2001, 08:17 PM
\"There are MANY options, if you want it \"out of the box\" with slow attacks, it will end up sounding fake, you need to spend time getting \"into\" the library.

However, so many people are asking for this, that it might be a great articulation file update... guys http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif\"

Hey all,

I hope this does not become a flaming issue. I hope what I started is not taking as negative.

I have been spending every free moment I have with GOS. I can say, in all honesty, I have started to not only enjoy the features, but understand them as well.

I may have not expressed (exp.) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif myself clearly. I am not sure if what I am looking for is an issue of attacks or not.

All I can tell you is what my ear tells me.

It seems, even in p samples, the bowing is to
aggressive. Not, so much the volume of the bowing but the attitude. More so in the highs...

Struck too hard? Mic\'d too close? I\'m not sure.

What I am picturing in my mind is a slow and gentle bowing. Airy, as you put it, King.
(By the way, I will try all of your suggestions)

Now, of course, I am not saying that there may not be a simple tweak to this or an .art update.

So, perhaps a slower attack will \"fool\" the ear into thinking it is 12 violins bowing every so gently. Or, maybe not.

Thanks for your time and remember... I will not speak negative of GOS! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Ps. I have some pops and clicks in 1st violins. I hear this was corrected?

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

KingIdiot
11-20-2001, 08:35 PM
Francis,

I wasn\'t being condiscending in my last post....maybe a tad sarcastic..but that never comes off correctly in cyberland.
Try the Harmonics and Sordino patches. Use Controlle CC11 withthe EXP/Mod Wheel controll all the way down. see how tht sounds, then go back and adjust \"timbre\" with the EXP/Mod wheel control.

i think maybe a good updatd might be for an EXP patfh with only p-mp and the EXP controller actually fading down to 0/nothing. It might satisfy some people. As well it might sound more realistic to some people.

I REALLY suggest using the harmonics for airy stuff. They are truely beautiful.

Maybe you can post a piece o music you like and we can help you use the write patches to get that sound.


OH! and by the way. I jsut tried the all violins Crecendo patches. I have a feeling this is what you\'re looking for in terms of attacks

OH1 and OH! By the way http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

where are the pops you\'re hearing? You shouldn\'t be hearing any pops. Are they in the sample ( appearing at the same point in the same note all the time?) or is it from strenuous Gigastudio use?

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Really...I am an Idiot


[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 11-20-2001).]

Francis Belardino
11-20-2001, 09:07 PM
\"I wasn\'t being condiscending in my last post....maybe a tad sarcastic..but that never comes off correctly in cyberland\".

No, no... not at all. None taken, King.

I just hope that I am not coming across as the masked crusader here. I think there are others who share this view.

By the way, let me state that...
for a big, powerful string section...GOS Rocks and Rocks out of the box. The Contra Basses are down right scary!!! ECT.

I tried all the gstudio control edits you listed. To me, I can still hear the same bowing only the overall sound changes in the sense of volume or brightness. Almost like an eq\'ing or volume edit.

So, to me, it seems hard to write for a slow movement when the bowing is fast. Again, I could be tottaly wrong but when I picture the playters I see tierd elbows. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Slower attacks, wether by the user or the maker may help this. Think of the movment of a warm synth patch but the realism of GOS.

Anyway, I still am in the learning stage of this work and so far, I feel as if I joied a special club. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif So, with that said... I am a happy user.

Last, I do have a sample of music that I want to get the sound of. Its not mine but I could email it to you. It\'s Micheal Kamen\'s, Band of Brothers - Track 11. I sent it to, Gary this past weekend.

Ps. Yea, the click is a loop thing. I believe in 1stViolins. I \'ll check again.

Scott Speed
11-20-2001, 09:33 PM
Hi KingIdiot,

Many thanks...these are just the kind of suggestions I was looking for. I understand how important controllers are, and I use them extensively when I\'m in the editing stage of things.
But I\'d also like to have an \"out of the box\" slow attack patch so I don\'t get bogged down with the controller edits while I\'m simply trying to get my initial ideas out and into the sequencer. Thanks again for the tips! I\'ll see if I can work something out with the sample editor.

Regards,
Scott


<snip>
In fact I find that with REALLY slow crecendos its a good idea to strt with Sordino patches or even tremelo patches at pp and cross fade via CC11 controls. Even better would be harmonics. these suckers are super light and airy layering some of these in on top gives a great airy tone with EXP control on the SusViv EXP Leg instruments. They can be used as \"harmonic overtones\" instead of real Harmonics. Or if you do crossfading it can be used to simulate light bow attack to piano bow sound.

Like I stated aove Sodinos work great too. Another thing you might want to do is set the velocity curve of the SUSVIB EXP instruments to a different setting. This allwos th user to adjust velocity setttings of NOte Ons as well as exp. This isn\'t \"realistic\" but it might help you get wht you\'re looking for, by either A playing notes softer, or B playing PIanimisso louder but using CC control to control volume.
<snip>

KingIdiot
11-20-2001, 09:40 PM
Francis,

ashif@musicyouneed.com

Loop thing? hmmm There aren\'t any loops.... You sure your Harddrive did\'nt go to sleep? Sometimes if you let your drive go to sleep, you\'ll hear an odd looping like mismatch that comes from giga not being able to access the rest of the sample.


Scott,

hopefully you find somethig that works. I understand the \"out of the box\" need, and thin that the all vioilns Crecendo patch should work fine for this. Also editing isn\'t that hard, so adding a slow attack to the full strings patch is fairly quick.

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Really...I am an Idiot

Scott Speed
11-20-2001, 09:40 PM
Hi Francis,

No question...this library rocks. I just wanted to make that clear from my view point as well.
I think we\'re both hinting at the same thing. Maybe \"slower\" attack should also cover \"softer\" attacks. I think you hit it on the head when you said the bow strike sounds too hard for some of the passages you\'re trying to write for. That\'s precisely what I was trying to get at. A softer and/or slower attack would be perfect.
Of course, (and I always have to put this disclaimer in)...if I\'m missing something, somebody please feel free to point it out.

Regards,
Scott

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Francis Belardino:
<snip>
So, to me, it seems hard to write for a slow movement when the bowing is fast. Again, I could be tottaly wrong but when I picture the playters I see tierd elbows. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Slower attacks, wether by the user or the maker may help this. Think of the movment of a warm synth patch but the realism of GOS.

Anyway, I still am in the learning stage of this work and so far, I feel as if I joied a special club. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif So, with that said... I am a happy user.

Last, I do have a sample of music that I want to get the sound of. Its not mine but I could email it to you. It\'s Micheal Kamen\'s, Band of Brothers - Track 11. I sent it to, Gary this past weekend.

Ps. Yea, the click is a loop thing. I believe in 1stViolins. I \'ll check again.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Francis Belardino
11-20-2001, 10:14 PM
Hey King.

No, sorry... what I meant was the click is happing at the same point in time. I need to
listen again. It may just be orchestra noise.
There is a touch of that going on. I love it!!
I want more of it!!

I may have mentioned that 25% of our work at the post studio is location recording. Choirs and Orchestras.

I want to somehow capture a noise floor and paste it as sub tone in my work. ie, chair squeaks, page turns...etc.

Scott,

Thanks, buddy. I don\'t feel so crazy now http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

No, but really. I too am happy with GOS but there is something missing, by us or the samples http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif in writting for slow movment.

This will all work out Im sure.

King, is this making sense to you. What Scott and I are trying to convey?

------------------
Francis Belardino
Sound Designer
Audio Visions, LTD.
Wilmington, DE.
www.audiovisionsonline.com

Garritan
11-21-2001, 12:19 AM
Regarding slower attacks:
We dealt with this issue at length during the beta process and there were varying discussions about attacks and sustain samples. The dynamic level of the sample often dictates the attack, Of course, the slower attacks will be at the pianissimo level samples, whereas quicker more aggressive attacks will be at the higher dynamic levels. Depending on the dynamic level, the player will approach the string with his bow with varying degrees of attack. String players normally don\'t play those soft, lush lines at the louder levels. This library has chromatic samples at the pianissimo level (as well as mp, mf, & f levels); so first try the softer levels.

Also try different articulations - if the pianissimo level of the \"1st Violin Sustain Vibrato\" doesn\'t do the trick, try the \"2nd Violin Sustain Vibrato\" patch. If that isn\'t to your liking, try \"All Violins Sustain Vibrato\". Then try the Warm variations of the above. Also try \"All Violin Sustain Sordinos\" or \"1st Violin Sustain Sordinos\" )for a nice silky sound), or try some of the \"Sul Altra Corda\" patches. Now if you want really slow attacks, try the All Violins Sustain Crescendo patches. In other words, explore your choices and you may find exactly what you are looking for.

Also, it may be that you\'re trying legato mode when you don\'t want to be. For the slower natural attacks, try NOT using the LEG instruments. When trying to do legato passages, a dead giveaway for a sampled sound are those slower attacks that produce that drunken or swelling sound between notes. The LEG instruments were designed to have \"faster attack\" samples mask the slower attacks. So if you are not hearing those slow attacks in Legato Mode, then it\'s working. See if using a non-LEG (legato) instrument does the trick.

There may be cases where you may want a very slow attack for a stilted sound. Perhaps MaestroTools can also be used to trigger slower attack samples as it does for faster attacks; and if there is a demand for it, this can be a candidate for a future update.

Maestro Gary

Jeannot Welter
11-21-2001, 08:34 AM
It sounds to me like the 2nd Vln portato patch is what some people are looking for. Unfortunately there is no 1st Vln portato and the 1st Vln and 2nd Vln sound to different to mix them.

Francis Belardino
11-22-2001, 12:57 AM
\"There may be cases where you may want a very slow attack for a stilted sound. Perhaps MaestroTools can also be used to trigger slower attack samples as it does for faster attacks; and if there is a demand for it, this can be a candidate for a future update.\"

You\'re the best, Gary. Thank you for taking the time to explain and expand. Thank you for considerign updates as well.

GOS... not just samples ... but more so a membership! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Simon Ravn
11-22-2001, 03:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark UK:
Simon - would it be possible to hear the \"Adagio for Strings\" that has been mentioned? I would be really interested to hear how it turned out.


Mark<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mark, if you provide your email I will mail the short Barber example to you. My website has been down for eternity now and has been in \'DNS update hell\' for the past almost two weeks now.

Mark UK
11-22-2001, 09:13 AM
Simon - Many thanks for agreeing to send the Barber file.

My e-mail address is:

markwoodcock@blueyonder.co.uk

Much appreciated!

Mark

Damon
11-22-2001, 09:53 AM
Gary I think adding a function to Maestro Tools for adding a slow attack feature would be great like you mentioned at the end of your post! I vote for that in a future update. Thanks again for your ideas and time, the library ROCKS!

Happy Thanksgiving! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 11-22-2001).]

Francis Belardino
11-22-2001, 10:20 AM
You have my vote!

Happy Holidays everyone!!!

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

A_Sapp
11-23-2001, 10:47 PM
What\'s maestro tools and all this info surrounding it? I have no clue.

dnortana
11-24-2001, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A_Sapp:
What\'s maestro tools and all this info surrounding it? I have no clue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maestro is a MIDI utility program that was written specifically for GOS, and it comes with the GOS package. Maestro adds some very important and useful functionality to the Strings. For example, a legato function for use with the LEG articulations, and an automatic up-down bow sample switcher for the up and down bow articulations.

Trond